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REL High-level connection.
#1
I´m testing a REL sub in my system for the first time, and i know there are a few steps to do for a proper connection and a Devialet setup in order to achive the best performance from both.

I´m a bit far from that procedure.
If anyone knows how to do it or a link with the explanation, i´ll be very gratefull.

Cheers.
Innuos ZenMini, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#2
The wiring connection for the high level input to the REL is straight forward, as per the manual. There's no problem there.

Balancing the sub against your speakers is tricky. I just checked the specs for your Guaneri Traditions and they indicate a -3dB point of 40 Hz in the bass, just a little higher than my old Dynaudio Contour 1.3 SEs which I used with a REL years ago in my pre-Devialet days. Set the crossover frequency on the REL to as low as it will go, don't set it to 40 Hz or higher. The REL and your speakers are going to be running together so you want both rolling off over a similar range so they add together to the same level as the speakers above the range where the crossover is occurring. You'll probably find adjusting the gain setting on the REL tricky if you're doing it by ear but it's probably going to need to be higher than you think it should be. REL say that the biggest mistake people make is setting the crossover too high and the gain too low and that was my experience. You may find it easier to get into the ball park for the gain setting if you can get a test CD and use a cheap sound pressure level meter, even an app on your phone. Set the meter to the C weighting option, not the A weighting option, or preferably to Flat if the meter has a Flat or no weighting option (not all meters offer flat/no weighting). You may need to do some fine tuning by ear over time.

What I found to some degree is that I spent time increasing the gain setting in small increments and then ended up finding I'd gone a bit too far and backed off a bit in order to get it right. It can be hard to judge if you don't have experience with listening to a system with a sub where the level between the sub and the speakers has been optimised because you're starting from a position of not really knowing how it should sound. You're probably going to be initially impressed by what more bass does for the music and there can be a tendency to think that if more is better then even more is even better. It is, up to the point where even more is actually worse but it can take you a while to work out where the "just right" point is. Overall I found that I was happier if I erred on the side of a bit too little bass rather than on the side of a bit too much bass because I was used to listening to bass with roll off before I added the sub. It really can take some time, probably longer than you have the sub on loan for if you've borrowed it for the test, to get things into the ball park if you haven''t got any experience with subs so if you know someone with a REL who's getting good results with the high level connection it might be a very good idea to invite them over and ask them to help get the settings right.

You may also find that whatever gain setting you come up with, it will deliver a bit too much bass on some recordings and a bit too little on others. Some recording engineers like more bass than others and they mix according to their preference. There's also some evidence that a lot of people like the bass to be elevated slightly (only 2-5 dB or so) above the mids and highs. How much will probably depend on how loud you like to listen to music at. The ear is less sensitive to bass at low levels than it is at high levels but it's still less sensitive at high levels than it is to the mids at the same high level so turning up your listening level acts to some extent like increasing the bass level because your ear's sensitivity to the bass improves.

There's a bit, perhaps even a big, element of the subjective in dialling the sub in to suit your tastes, and it probably depends a bit on what type of music you listen to as well because bass levels can be mastered quite differently on recordings of different types of music.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Kimber Select speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#3
(25-Jun-2020, 22:50)BoyScout Wrote: I´m testing a REL sub in my system for the first time, and i know there are a few steps to do for a proper connection and a Devialet setup in order to achive the best performance from both.

I´m a bit far from that procedure.
If anyone knows how to do it or a link with the explanation, i´ll be very gratefull.

Cheers.

Red wire = Right Channel POSITIVE Binding post of 220-Pro
Yellow wire = Left Channel POSITIVE Binding post of 220-Pro
Black wire = GND post (used for Phono Turntable)

That's how I've done for my G1-MKIIs & its flawless. No hum whatsoever.

Which REL model are you testing with your SF Guarneri ?

The -3dB point of my B&W 802D3 are 17Hz but using my ears and also a SPL meter having (A & C weighings), I've set mine at 33Hz for my room. If I go 34 or 35Hz, it starts to color the midrange. If I go 31 or 32, the midbass suffers. 

I have to agree 100% with @David A about the fact that the biggest mistake people make is setting the crossover too high and the gain too low

Please keep in mind that the modern filters that REL uses these days are 8 millisec for Ref series #25 & G1-MKII; 4 millisec for s-series & T-series hence the subs behave differently. 

You should be looking at s-series S/510 or S/812 for your system, if not G1-MKII. 
Roon Nucleus w/ LPSU & AQ Tornado + Roon Air & iPad  >  AQ Diamond ETH | CEC TL-5 CD Transport + AQ Z3 + 3 x Orea Indigo > AQ Diamond AES/EBU 
Devialet 440-PRO CI >  AQ Wild  RCA-XLR | 6 x Orea Bronze, 2 x SR Atmosphere PC | B&W 802 D3 {Bi-wired}  >  AQ Redwood (Biwire)
REL G1-Mk2 pair | PS Audio PP 12 + AQ NRG-1000 | SAM DISABLED - DPM OFF - Northern Virginia - US
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#4
Always you, David, ready to give a hand to the lost ones. Thanks a lot (again).

You´re completely right. My first instinct was setting the gain low and the crossover high, i´ll try the opposite, just like you explained,
and about the recordings too, some are more sudwoofer "free" than others, but that wasn´t a surprise for me.

For now i´m not very excited about the sub, i like it with a very subtle influence but, after a listening period, i wonder if the difference is enough to do the step. We´ll see after a week of listenning and settings.

By the way, this model is the T9i and the S510 is an option.

Cheers.
Innuos ZenMini, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#5
T9i won't impress you.
Roon Nucleus w/ LPSU & AQ Tornado + Roon Air & iPad  >  AQ Diamond ETH | CEC TL-5 CD Transport + AQ Z3 + 3 x Orea Indigo > AQ Diamond AES/EBU 
Devialet 440-PRO CI >  AQ Wild  RCA-XLR | 6 x Orea Bronze, 2 x SR Atmosphere PC | B&W 802 D3 {Bi-wired}  >  AQ Redwood (Biwire)
REL G1-Mk2 pair | PS Audio PP 12 + AQ NRG-1000 | SAM DISABLED - DPM OFF - Northern Virginia - US
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#6
(26-Jun-2020, 16:13)audio_engr Wrote: T9i won't impress you.
Do you think i´ll notice a huge jump from T9i to S510?
So far it has some pros but cons too.
Innuos ZenMini, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#7
(26-Jun-2020, 16:13)audio_engr Wrote: T9i won't impress you.

Arup,

We tend to agree on things but I'll speak up for the T9i, at least to a degree.

My first REL, back long before I got my Devialet, was a Strata 3, long discontinued. I never quite managed to get it well integrated in my audio system when I got it and when I started setting up a separate home theatre system in a different room, it migrated into that system and I used the low level connection and Audyssey room correction on a Marantz AVR. The automated setup did a great job of integration and the Strata 3 stayed there until it started to make intermittent noise. By then it was well out of guarantee, the REL service agent in my city couldn't find the fault and couldn't get a circuit diagram for it to help him trace it. I ended up replacing it in the HT system with 2 T9s, no T9i at that stage, and I like the T9s. I don't get pressurisation of the room because it's open plan and open to the rest of the house so the room "leaks bass" like mad hence the lack of pressurisation. They do fill in the bass nicely, however, even if they don't get down to 20 Hz or lower.

I think whether the T9 will satisfy @BoyScout is going to come down to what he wants from the sub. If what he wants is a sense of lower bass than he's getting with his speakers and he doesn't want to get bass down to 20 Hz or to be able to pressurise the room and get that "kick in the chest" feeling, or if his room can't be pressurised because it's open to other spaces, then it may well do the job of supporting the bottom end of his speakers in a nice way. If he wants strong low bass down to  around 20 Hz I agree with you completely. It won't go that low but it may produce useful bass down to around 30 Hz where we find the lowest note on a piano and it's 10 Hz below the lowest note on an acoustic or electric bass. I find that low enough for really satisfying music but it depends on what kind of music you listen to. It's also going to depend on the size of the room but @BoyScout is using standpoint 2 way monitors so I don't think the room is likely to be too big to get a reasonable result from a T9i.

So I'd give qualified support for a T9i. I will say that with speakers the quality of the Guaneri Tradition I think a REL from one of their higher ranges would probably be better in terms of sound quality but I think the choice of specific model depends a lot on just what kind of bass he's looking for and how deep he wants it to go. I no lnoger use a sub in my music system.

@BoyScout,

One thing I forgot to mention was SAM. I don't know how well the integration will work if you're using SAM because the SAM "correction" will also be passed to the sub. It's worth trying but I wouldn't make any predictions about how well it would work. It's worth a try but my feeling is that you'd be better off not using SAM.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Kimber Select speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#8
(26-Jun-2020, 17:13)BoyScout Wrote:
(26-Jun-2020, 16:13)audio_engr Wrote: T9i won't impress you.
Do you think i´ll notice a huge jump from T9i to S510?
So far it has some pros but cons too.

S/510 will integrate better. It won't do chest hitting low bass but more of dimensioning, larger scale & soundstaging, greater dynamics of the overall system, bottom to top clarity & greater low-level listening ability. And if you happen to hit the Ref series (#25 or G1-MKII) is totally disappears. It continues to give you everything but you won't be able to ever point at it even if you're standing right in front of it.
Roon Nucleus w/ LPSU & AQ Tornado + Roon Air & iPad  >  AQ Diamond ETH | CEC TL-5 CD Transport + AQ Z3 + 3 x Orea Indigo > AQ Diamond AES/EBU 
Devialet 440-PRO CI >  AQ Wild  RCA-XLR | 6 x Orea Bronze, 2 x SR Atmosphere PC | B&W 802 D3 {Bi-wired}  >  AQ Redwood (Biwire)
REL G1-Mk2 pair | PS Audio PP 12 + AQ NRG-1000 | SAM DISABLED - DPM OFF - Northern Virginia - US
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#9
(25-Jun-2020, 22:50)BoyScout Wrote: I´m testing a REL sub in my system for the first time, and i know there are a few steps to do for a proper connection and a Devialet setup in order to achive the best performance from both.

I´m a bit far from that procedure.
If anyone knows how to do it or a link with the explanation, i´ll be very gratefull.

Cheers.


For Devialet, do not connect the black wire. Connect only yellow or right. If you connect the black wire you might damage something - John Hunter , the REL ceo told me.

The REL subwoofers integrates very well as long as you position it and set it up properly. Massive improvement to overall performance.
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#10
I had a rel s1 two years ago connected to my then D120. I connected all 3 wires following the manual. Nothing is damaged as far as i know. I couldn’t get it to blend in very well and found myself twisting knobs continously to make it sound good. One song would sound brilliant, the next one definitely not. Decided to sell it. When using the sub i switched SAM off as it cannot be good for the sub output
Devialet 220 pro expert; Focal 1028 Be; Rega RP6; Ortofon Quintet Orange
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