Sound differences between Devialet 200 and Devialet 250

[f1eng]

Are you saying that you connect the Linn DAC to the line input of your D250? You do realise that the signal is then going through the D250 ADC and DAC on its way to the speakers? There is no way to bypass the internal DAC of the Devialet design. You can connect a digital source and avoid the ADC, but if you use an analog signal (phono or line inputs) the signal will be digitised for processing in DSP.

I told him twice already, he just doesn't get it and keeps stating the Linn DAC is better.

He's actually giving a compliment to Devialet's DAC (and ADC) as this is transparant enough to keep the Linn's character intact.

I do find this fascinating though. I have also experimented with different DACs with the Devialet and in one particular instance felt that the SQ was better than the Devialet DAC alone. I know it's totally counter-intuitive and makes little sense. I also know I am not the only one to have experienced this by the way (and I'm not just talking about Stigmater!).

Could it be these other DACs are doing something better which the Devialet's ADC process then captures?  

I know many on here will think that the other DACs are just adding colourations/euphonics, but what if the end result is equally transparent and detailed but with even more spatial information for example? This was my experience I might add.


If we feed the Devialet an analogue signal is there a step/process that is changed/omitted when compared to a normal digital input (in my case AES)? 

Guillaume

One can not get any more transparent than transparent!

A friend who is a consulting engineer and designs a lot of kit for several well known brands has done quite a few experiments to investigate the audible effects of adding various colourations. The actual audible impression is by no means always what one might expect.
It was kicked off originally to investigate why LPs sound so nice despite being technically weak with significant colourations and distortions.

He told me that adding a bit of noise, but particularly music-correlated noise (whatever that is), gives a bigger stereo image, and the impression of more spatial detail, so does slight compression (done on LPs to keep the ambient information out of the background noise).

I am as close to 100% sure as I can be that any digital source which is preferred into the analogue input must be adding some type of colour or euphonic distortion. I can think of no other sound explanation.

[Stigmater]

Stigmater - For comparison, have you tried using the Akurate's digital output direct to the Devialet.  Hence by-passing the Linn's DAC, and going direct to the Devialet DAC.  Might be interesting?  This is certainly more of a "purist" approach, than using an external DAC.

Interesting. Is it possible to disable internal ADC and use Devialet as a pure integrated amp or pure power amp?

Yes. You are right. That is why majority of streamers (transport+DAC) use I2S interface with reclocking system. It is the most advanced way to send digital data from transport to DAC nowadays.

There is no reason to worry. But taking into account the fact that Akurate DS is not only transport, but also DAC with high-quality internal volume control, it is possible to use it with a pure two-channel power amp. Why do you need Devialet then?
Triple-convertion (from digital to analog and then analog to digital and then again digital to analog) is not good for SQ.

No, it's not possible to disable the ADC inside the Devialets for analog inputs. All inputs signals must be(come) digital as they all tie in to the DSP which is the central hub of the Devialet. It's needed for the ADH amplifier part to do it's work. The ADC is known to be very transparant (as is the rest of the Devialet design) capturing even the analog sound character of an external DAC.

Yes, at least in theory the triple conversion should be detrimental for SQ to some degree. It could however be that in the end it is still sounds better than the digital output of the Akurate. Not saying it does but I've learned one simply can't generalize based on textbook knowledge/theory alone. In the end it's the real world result that matters.

FWIW in this discussion I came from an all-Linn Klimax system.

At first I held onto my KDS/1 as I found it more convenient to stream through the KDS (all my music on a NAS etc). The KDS had no digital outputs so I used a couple of analogue RCA cables to connect to the Devialet master.

I was very happy with this setup from a SQ perspective.

However I started experimenting with other transports and soon realised that the Devialet DAC (without preceding ADC stage) was equally good. It was a no-brainer to sell my KDS and use to proceeds to invest in better cables.

I believe Rufus had a very similar experience also coming from a KDS/1.

The KDS definitely had a more velvety presentation, quite pleasant actually. But I do think the Devialet DAC (being fed by a transport or AIR) is ultimately more detailed and transparent.

Ultimately it all comes down to personal preference. More recently I have been amazed at the results when feeding a Trinnov Amethyst into my master, via analogue cables! Even with room optimisation switched off it is a very different presentation than the Devialet on its own. In some ways I prefer it!

Guillaume

Hi and welcome, I can share my little experience,
Not long ago I upgraded my D200 to D250 and that's after trying D200 in monoblocks (D400).
I liked D250 much better even though according to specs D400 should be superior.
D250 will give you better control of the speaker, more air and dynamics.
Most important thing D250 brought to my system is very sweet sound , with D200 I started to regret that I purchased my d800 diamonds,  mostly because those diamond tweeters that were bright and harsh.
Now after upgrade im in heaven, highs are so sweet that I'm enjoying of so much more music , things that before I couldn't listen because of unpleasant and bright sound, I of course blamed it on record quality and my speakers.
I have to be honest and I'll say that D250 was not my only upgrade , I did upgrade DAC and speaker cables ,I chose Stealth audio Reverie which I really liked after my Neotech Sahara (as my dealer said: someone's entire level is other flagship )  and regarding DAC, I found that Linn Akurate DAC is better then Devialet internal DAC and sounds more analog and resolving.
I can share even more, couple of days ago I tried Luxman 700 pre and power (10000$ x2) in my setup , and I liked  Devialet more.

Thanks for your extensive reply Stigmater.

The experienced differences between D200 vs D250 as described by you are equal to what I have heard from my dealer.
His opinion is that the D250 is even better than a D400 when it comes to a more resolving and less grained sound, better resolution and separating of voices and instruments, and even a tighter and more powerfull bass.
The advantage of more power can be the icing on the cake when it comes to speakers which are less sensitive and have a low efficiency.
But honestly, I was not expecting such a good performance of the demo D200 on my Kharma,s. If the D250 will impress me with significant better performance it must be the right amp for me.
Time for an audition at home I guess  

I Can share some more interesting insights from my side,
and i hope JeanF will let me use his thread for further comparison D200 - D250 and now D800 (and maybe even will change the header) Thanks in advance.

So week ago i took home another D250 for demo and now i have D800 ,
For some reason i didn’t get the WOW effect,
I have a little hard to drive speakers, i thought D800 will do the magic,
but sadly it didn’t happened.
I spent some sleepless nights in comparing the D250 and D800 so i could understand if i'm willing to go for such upgrade, or not.
At first master and slave was connected with some cheap SPDIF cable, i thought that i should change it to something descent before i'll return the unit.
I took from another dealer Stealth SPDIF cable and after connecting it i thought that i here a real difference now , but after playing a little more with swapping cables and D250 vs D800 i once again can’t decide if im hearing the difference or not, maybe i do hear the deference and i think that D800 maybe a little better , but the difference is really not big.
I  know that people here that their opinion is important to me are really like and think that's D800 is the best thing at this price point that money can buy or at least one of the best, and im agree, even though i didn’t test a lot of hi end amps at my place.
I expected the major impact to be on the bass of my speakers i expected it to be more cleaner and tight and i really can’t say if i get it.
The question is , what I’m missing here is it expected that the difference  between D250 and D800 is really not big.

[GuillaumeB]

A couple of questions Stigmater - 

1) Have you checked in the configurator that your amps are outputting 800W per channel? Might seem like a silly question but I actually made that mistake myself, for some reason the system had defaulted to 240W (at the time I had the 500). I also had my amps running in mono mode at one point... but that's a different story!   Anyway the point is it's a good idea to double check all your settings in the Configurator.

2) How are you feeding the master - via the Linn Akurate? If so is this a digital out or a RCA connection (i.e. analogue). If digital make sure you choose digital output mode 88/96kHz - you can do this through Linn's Konfig programme. 

Also you mention that your speakers are hard to drive but according to the specs I found they seem pretty sensitive (90dB) and drop to 3 ohms minimum, so that shouldn't present too tough a load. Having said that I would expect a considerable improvement in SQ going from 250 to 800.

Guillaume

[Stigmater]

A couple of questions Stigmater - 

1) Have you checked in the configurator that your amps are outputting 800W per channel? Might seem like a silly question but I actually made that mistake myself, for some reason the system had defaulted to 240W (at the time I had the 500). I also had my amps running in mono mode at one point... but that's a different story!   Anyway the point is it's a good idea to double check all your settings in the Configurator.

2) How are you feeding the master - via the Linn Akurate? If so is this a digital out or a RCA connection (i.e. analogue). If digital make sure you choose digital output mode 88/96kHz - you can do this through Linn's Konfig programme. 

Also you mention that your speakers are hard to drive but according to the specs I found they seem pretty sensitive (90dB) and drop to 3 ohms minimum, so that shouldn't present too tough a load. Having said that I would expect a considerable improvement in SQ going from 250 to 800.

Guillaume

Hi Guillaume

1) Even though I was sure regarding the 800W I double checked it and of course it's 800W

2) Regarding the connection, right now I have enabled digital and analog out in Linn and I'm checking which one is better, here a little more on it from Linn Akurate thread http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=815&page=8

Can you please explain some more regarding digital output mode 88/96kHz , i had it set as RAW so it will match files bit perfect.

3) B&W 802 known as speaker that hungry for power, at first when I had D200 they were bright and really unpleasant to listen , diamond tweeter was very harsh aspecially when high frequency more audible to my relatively young ears ,
D250 changed all that and Linn added some more magic.

When I switched to D800 I expected to elevate good to best and I don't understand why I'm still standing in good + 15%
I'm still have 2-3 days to test my system and I really want to come to wise decision.

[kerkhoffd]

Interesting read. Was wondering the same thing.

I had a D200 here today to listen to, and must admit that I didn't have the right digital cable to connect my Linn Akurate DS/1 to the D200 and so had to use analog RCA. I must say I was a bit underwelmed in comparison of the D200 with digital out of a Naim NDX and my first impression of the D200 at my dealers'.

In that light I was just wondering, Guillaume, what's the reason the Linn's digital output mode should be set at fixed 88/96khz and not use the RAW or fixed 176/192khz mode option.

I will be trying to find an adapter to connect my digital cable to the Akurate as soon as possible to be able to audition the D200 at it's best. If that still doesn't bring the magic I was expecting, I might try a D250 too.

[Confused]

Probably a really stupid question from me, but here goes. You have connected the speakers to the correct terminals when in dual mono mode? It is a little odd connecting one black plug into a red socket!

Also, what other amps have you tried with the B&W's? One thing occurs to me, maybe the speakers just never will provide what you are looking for?

[Stigmater]

Probably a really stupid question from me, but here goes. You have connected the speakers to the correct terminals when in dual mono mode? It is a little odd connecting one black plug into a red socket!

Also, what other amps have you tried with the B&W's? One thing occurs to me, maybe the speakers just never will provide what you are looking for?

Confused, as I said in my last post, the sound is not bad , not bad at all , it's just not as good as I expected.
when I put 12900€ + tax in upgrade, I expect it to be justify.
And regarding your technical questions, everything is connected in correct way 100%.

Regarding other amps , other then all Devialet line I only tried Luxman 700 pre + power and I didn't like it.
Maybe I need to listen to some more good speakers to understand that mine no worse.
By the way I auditioned Q3 with mine D250 and found it too analytical and bright for my taste, but it has maybe the best bass in terms of accuracy and resolution.

[Confused]

Yes, I thought it was probably a stupid question on my part, but you never know. As for trying other speakers, well worth the effort I would have thought. The price of a companion would go a long way towards some interesting options. I would suggest the KEF Blade, but I am very biased as they suit my preferences splendidly. They do work well with he D250 though. Although if you start the question of speaker options for the D250/800 here, it might be like opening Pandora's box!

[Stigmater]

Confused,

Trying different speakers it's ain't easy task, right now I'm pretty happy with the result that I got with my diamonds, what's more bothers me it's the amps, I believe that with good amp you can make almost any speaker to sing.
Right now I have option to audition at my home Luxman 900 or Constellation Insperation the entry model,
If someone listened and knows how it compares to D800 or D250 it will be very interesting.

Confused
Can you please share your experience with trying different amps before Devialet and your conclusions.

[Stigmater]

A couple of questions Stigmater - 

2) How are you feeding the master - via the Linn Akurate? If so is this a digital out or a RCA connection (i.e. analogue). If digital make sure you choose digital output mode 88/96kHz - you can do this through Linn's Konfig programme. 

Guillaume

Guillaume
I set output mode to 88/96KHz and I like it so far, bass is more defined and clear then with analog out and overall presentation is less harsh then when it was set to raw.