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Was a new DAC installed for the those who had an upgrade to Expert Pro?
#1
Was the original DAC in the Expert series upgraded for those that chose to go from an Expert to Expert Pro when the upgrade was available?  I believe Devialet will open the upgrade program again and probably will go for it, assuming the DAC will be upgraded.  I read about the previous upgrade program and there was mention of a Magic Wire upgrade but I couldn't tell whether that meant the DAC was changed or whether it was just a gain circuit for the previous DAC.  Thanks in advance.
Devialet Expert 220 Pro, Vivid B1 Decade speakers in Rosso Barchetta red (only 200 produced in a limited edition), Roon Nucleus, Keces P8 linear power supply, AudioQuest Niagara 1000 power conditioner, ASI LiveLine loom (purchased directly from Franck Tchang when I lived in France), and Roon lifetime license with Tidal streaming.
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#2
As far as I know, the Expert Pro series uses a PCM1792 DAC which I think is the same as the original Expert.  There were changes in the ADH implementation - there's a thread somewhere on the forum dissecting the patent that describes the changes, which were largely to do with the switching frequency at which the Class D amplifier runs.  Maybe that's what you had in mind?

I am not sure why you would avoid upgrading depending on whether or not the DAC (chip) was changed.  Surely it's the performance and sound quality of the amp as a whole that matters, and that depends on much more than the choice of DAC chip.
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Sonos ZP90 (Cullen modified), Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#3
(11-Jul-2018, 13:24)thumb5 Wrote: As far as I know, the Expert Pro series uses a PCM1792 DAC which I think is the same as the original Expert.  There were changes in the ADH implementation - there's a thread somewhere on the forum dissecting the patent that describes the changes, which were largely to do with the switching frequency at which the Class D amplifier runs.  Maybe that's what you had in mind?

I am not sure why you would avoid upgrading depending on whether or not the DAC (chip) was changed.  Surely it's the performance and sound quality of the amp as a whole that matters, and that depends on much more than the choice of DAC chip.

I realize that the implementation of stuff around the DAC can have a profound impact on performance.  But newer DACs can also accommodate MQA, DSD, etc.  Thus, I would hope that Devialet would up the game with a newer DAC.
Devialet Expert 220 Pro, Vivid B1 Decade speakers in Rosso Barchetta red (only 200 produced in a limited edition), Roon Nucleus, Keces P8 linear power supply, AudioQuest Niagara 1000 power conditioner, ASI LiveLine loom (purchased directly from Franck Tchang when I lived in France), and Roon lifetime license with Tidal streaming.
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#4
I have to say I'm also surprised they didn't update to something that can handle higher bitrates etc, as it does seem the direction the industry's going. But my hunch is this is significantly harder work for them since it means they have to update all their DSP code too, and most likely the'd have to do loads of extra R&D to work out the foibles of a different DAC chip (or custom FPGA method). The pro's is quite incremental in their update rather than radical in that sense.

Whether or not this is important seems very much down to individuals... If Devialet had numbers/measurements to prove one way or the other, it would be great to see but I think theres slim chance of that, and I dont think they've ever published anything except the headline numbers they like. Im sure in the past they've said the DAC architecture isnt the limiting factor, but whit all the recent pro upgrades, this may no longer be the case?

Roon lifetime > Mac mini (RoonServer) > Eth > Allo DigiOne* > BNC ( >AES via Neutrik) > Devialet 250 Pro CI > PMC fact.8
‘Normal’ cables. *eBay LPS on the Allo, no discernible SQ change over Pi supply.
- London, UK -
>>> Devialet ‘EPO’ System - Expert Planned Obsolescence! <<<

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#5
Subjectively, I would say the Pro sounds like it has a superior DAC to the Expert. Finer details, more accurate bass, all this kind of good stuff. So in practical terms, taking the full ADH into account, the Pro does have a better DAC.

In terms of DSD, it should be remembered that the ADH core is inherently based on PCM architecture. So an ADH equipped Devialet could never run "Native" DSD. The best a Devialet can ever do is DSD via it's "MAT algorithm". This will currently accept DSD64, although I was told once that DSD128 is technically possible. (maybe the Pro could do more?)

At Munich, Devialet advised that MQA filters are "not compatible" with ADH, so the last "unfold" is not possible in a Devialet. (although it now turns out the last unfold is nothing but a filter and upsampling, and the Devialet upsamples everything to 24/192 anyway)

So to be blunt, if you are super keen to try DSD512 or run full MQA decoding, a Devialet Expert is not for you.

My view, since getting the Pro I have listened to few systems with very good DACs, Chord DAVE, dCS up to and including the dCS One and Vivaldi, and to my ears, the Devialet is in the same league. So depending on how you look at it and depending on what you want, the Devialet Expert Pro is either World Class state of the art kit, or behind the times and a brand to be abandoned. Choice is good.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - SOtM sMS-200Ultra Neo - tX-USBultra - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#6
I have actually seen 384kHz mentioned as the upsampling frequency, at least for the mono blocks. Whether that is correct for all models I do not know. DSD64 is normally converted to 352.8kHz PCM so 384kHz is plausible. Here is a quote from the 8.1.0 manual:

"MAT DSD Core technology converts the DSD format into Expert internal na-
tive PCM 40 bits / 384 kHz format thanks to an optimized algorithm, limiting the
amount of computational operations on the audio stream. Using only 15 bit perfect
additions (no multiplication, no storage), the MAT algorithm performs a 128 taps,
linear phase FIR (Finite Impulse Response) digital filter ensuring the conversion of the
DSD format into internal native PCM format with truly outstanding performances."
*

250 Pro CI::Roon, Core on NUC with Debian Linux, music on USB3 disk::RAAT::Audiolense XO::Monitor Audio MA201 (thoroughly rebuilt, with a SAM profile)
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#7
(11-Jul-2018, 15:50)Hifi_swlon Wrote: I have to say I'm also surprised they didn't update to something that can handle higher bitrates etc, as it does seem the direction the industry's going. 

The problem with 'the industry' is that not many manufacturers have the balls to stand up and tell it as it is. There's absolutely no merit in a higher bit rate than 96kHz for supplying to consumers. Mark Waldrep, who is one of the very few who actually records in 24/96, is doing a test amongst his readers at the moment and, although the test is still going, he's already come to the conclusion that the outcome will be that it's extremely difficult to hear the difference between 24/96 and CD quality. So if you have high bitrate music and it sounds significantly better than the CD version, you can bet it's because it's been mastered differently. 

So I applaud Devialet for standing by their principles and keeping the DAC that they think does a great job and work on the things around it to make it sound even better. The higher bit rate Devialet are using internally is so they can do DSP without losing sound quality but that's not the same as playing something that's put in a 24/384kHz bucket. All you get more with those recordings is a heap more very high frequency noise that only your dog can hear.
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#8
I don’t disagree with most of what you say Pim, but I don’t think that’s the reason they didn’t do it. I think it’s because the approach they took was easier as the working foundations stay the same.

If the type of people that buy High end hifi would be more likely to spend with Devialet if they could play higher bitrates they’d do it in a heartbeat if it was relatively easy.

Adding DSD64 capability is hardly Devialet sticking it to the industry. Smile

Most of my music is redbook so not really affected personally.

Roon lifetime > Mac mini (RoonServer) > Eth > Allo DigiOne* > BNC ( >AES via Neutrik) > Devialet 250 Pro CI > PMC fact.8
‘Normal’ cables. *eBay LPS on the Allo, no discernible SQ change over Pi supply.
- London, UK -
>>> Devialet ‘EPO’ System - Expert Planned Obsolescence! <<<

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#9
(12-Jul-2018, 08:58)Hifi_swlon Wrote: I don’t disagree with most of what you say Pim, but I don’t think that’s the reason they didn’t do it. I think it’s because the approach they took was easier as the working foundations stay the same.

If the type of people that buy High end hifi would be more likely to spend with Devialet if they could play higher bitrates they’d do it in a heartbeat if it was relatively easy.

Adding DSD64 capability is hardly Devialet sticking it to the industry. Smile

Most of my music is redbook so not really affected personally.

You've got a point there. But then again, when have Devialet ever done anything that people have asked for? Tongue
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#10
Yeah, it would probably be really time consuming and expensive to change it all.

I guess demand for these super high res formats like 768 kHz and DSD512 is rather small. We cannot stream any of these formats from any streaming service today. It's unlikely that this would dramatically change anytime soon as most of the non-audiophiles aren't interested in these formats. I'm not sure can we even buy these as downloads.

So, usually we get to play these super high res formats happens by doing upsampling / format conversions and filtering. This procedure certainly makes a difference that I can hear but the difference/improvement is quite small (in comparison to, let's say a room correction for example). That has been my experience at least. Tweaking and trying out different filters can be fun though! From this point of view only, supporting these super high res formats in Devialet wouldn't probably be worth the trouble / R&D investment / upgrade cost to us. I think a new DAC should offer more than just a format support. It would make more sense to me if it would come for example with a new master clock, increased performance of the Magic Wire / ADH etc. Then I would be more interested in spending some money for the upgrade Smile

Support for the PCM 384 kHz and DSD128 would be nice additions if these could be achieved with our current DAC chip and architecture.

I haven't yet seen any good evidence that MQA would give any real benefits to us. Especially the published measurements and articles of the MQA have been quite underwhelming so far.
Roon Nucleus+ > Devialet 1000 Pro > KEF R11
Michell Gyrodec | SME V | B-M Wood SL
Bluesound Node 2i > Genelec 8330
Tampere, Finland
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