What will a streamer add?

[Womaz]

Initially I intended to wait a little while before looking at the streamer option for my 200 set up.
Unfortunately the AIR issues may now dictate otherwise. I love the sound from AIR so I have a couple of questions.

Apart from the interface what will a dedicated streamer add? I notice on these forms there are some set ups that just use AIR and this is with very expensive set ups. There are also set ups with pretty expensive streaming solutions too.

I have all my CDs on the QNAP NAS drive and all ripped to FLAC. a few high res files which I am avoiding like the plague right now due to AIR issues.

I think my original intentions were to go for the 200 and upgrade the speakers, and just use AIR. This has been rather troublesome so far.
I guess what I am asking " Is it worth spending thousands on a streamer?"
I also recognise that Dialog could be an option but this does not solve my present dilemma.

Any help greatly appreciated.

[Ants]

Aside from the AIR issues, the reason I want to introduce a network streamer is primarily to have UPnP functionality and to improve the quality of playback. I will assume that a modest Auralic Aries or Moon Mind will sound better than the dedicated Mac Mini I am currently using. Another reason is to completely remove the computer and use a control point/app to play music from my NAS which runs Minimsever.

I've been assembling a list of network streamers/music servers to check out this weekend and the Montreal Hi-Fi show. Most of these brands will be on display. Some of these players are well beyond my budget but the Auralic and Moon and perhaps the Aurender entry model might be attainable.

My "wish list" is the following:
- Can it play all file formats (should be ALAC friendly)
- Does it support UPnP/Open Home
- Does it do gapless playback
- Does it offer online streaming services integration (Tidal, Spotify, etc)
- Does it offer 24/192 via all outputs (USB, Toslink, Coax)
- Does it offer DSD audio playback (not a deal breaker for me)
- USB input to attach hard drive for playback
- What features does the control point software/app offer

Network Streamers/ Audio Servers
- Bryston BDP-2
- Auralic Aries
- Auralic Aries LE
- Moon MiND
- Linn DS
- Aurender X100 / N100
- Lumin D1
- Pro-Ject Stream Box DS
- Atoll Audio ST 100/200

[Womaz]

Aside from the AIR issues, the reason I want to introduce a network streamer is primarily to have UPnP functionality and to improve the quality of playback. I will assume that a modest Auralic Aries or Moon Mind will sound better than the dedicated Mac Mini I am currently using. Another reason is to completely remove the computer and use a control point/app to play music from my NAS.

I've been assembling a list of network streamers/music servers to check out this weekend and the Montreal Hi-Fi show. Most of these brands will be on display. Some of these players are well beyond my budget but the Auralic and Moon and perhaps the Aurender entry model might be attainable.

Bryston BDP-2
Auralic Aries
Auralic Aries LE
Moon MiND
Linn DS
Aurender X100 / N100
Lumin D1
Pro-Ject Stream Box DS
Atoll Audio ST 100/200

I am scared to start making a short list just yet as it will turn into a long list

Some of those also on my radar

I understand that it will be a smoother process with a streamer. App for example and cutting out the PC, but as I already use DBPoweramp to rip to my NAS, i am wondering what other benefits over AIR a streamer will give me.

As stated I was going to wait for this but the AIR issue is starting to make it a little more pressing.

[samurai7595]

Having gone through a few streamers myself, I would suggest that besides auditioning before buying (for sound qulaity) have a serious & careful look at the different control points/apps.

When I had my Linn Akurate DS digital player, I did not like the Kinsky app and on 2 occassions, when I tried to upgrade the firmware on the unit, it would fail and it took weeks to get it working again.

Then, I tried a friend's Moon MiND unit and did not like the Moon app.  My buddy also found it very unreliable.

Now, I have the Bryston BDP-2 digital player and the MPaD app has been working flawlessly on my iPad Mini.

If I were ever to upgrade, the Aurender X100L would be at the top of my list!  I'll be auditioning one this coming weekend for curiousity.

The Sony HAPZ1ES also has a very nice app (only tried it very briefly) but unfortunately, it does not offer digital outputs.

[Womaz]

Yes the Aurender N100 is on my list.
I guess its more a general question I am asking. Will a streamer add a significan improvement in SQ over AIR.?
To me the 200 sounds brilliant with AIR and that could because I am still in the process of loving the new sound I am hearing from the 200 purchase.

Reason I ask is that I have stuck the CLIC back in the set up today and it is so inferior to AIR. I know this is not digitally connected but is that why it sounds so inferior.

[GuillaumeB]

Yes the Aurender N100 is on my list.
I guess its more a general question I am asking. Will a streamer add a significan improvement in SQ over AIR.?
To me the 200 sounds brilliant with AIR and that could because I am still in the process of loving the new sound I am hearing from the 200 purchase.

Reason I ask is that I have stuck the CLIC back in the set up today and it is so inferior to AIR. I know this is not digitally connected but is that why it sounds so inferior.

Hi womaz as I wrote in September last year when talking about streamers: "Having said that the elephant in the room here is AIR. If sound quality is your most important criteria you might want to compare it to AIR before parting with any cash." See post 126 below:

http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=253&page=13

It's also worth having a good read through that thread as we address this question in quite some detail.

Guillaume

[iamwappie]

I've had a Squeezebox for years. Recently I installed the Soundcheck toolbox as was amazed by the SQ improvements which means that a high quality streamer will probably improve thing a bit more. However at often huge amounts of $$.

I don't understand that there has no development over the last decade on a secure digital audio transfer protocol that also deals with error correction that is as international adopted standard. In data networks the TCP protocols takes care of error checking and re-transmits when a network package was not received in good state. A digital audio stream only transmits the stream without any checksums what so ever. The receiver cannot determine whether there were errors. It all comes down to limiting jitter and trying to sync clocks as good as possible. We're now in 2015 and didn't make any progress... strange

So in my believe, expensive streamers provide a better sound but will never guarantee bit perfectness. AIR does. But AIR is unstable.

I'll put my money (only $300) on the Dialog which will solve the AIR issues and deliver bit perfect streaming that other high end streamers (a few $1000) still will not be able to.

I hope at the end of 2015 we will have a Dialog and a stable accompanying Spark app that provides Tidal, Qobuz, Deezer and Spotify

BTW Today I installed AIR as was amazed by the quality. I use a Lenovo Windows 7 laptop. Configured it for 24/192, 1000ms buffer. No drop outs. I must be one of the few reading all the Air issues and poll results. I praise myself lucky. AIR is nice but usability sucks in comparison with e.g. the squeezebox interface. I assume the Spark app will address this too in the future making it a (near) perfect solution.

[Womaz]

I've had a Squeezebox for years. Recently I installed the Soundcheck toolbox as was amazed by the SQ improvements which means that a high quality streamer will probably improve thing a bit more. However at often huge amounts of $$.

I don't understand that there has no development over the last decade on a secure digital audio transfer protocol that also deals with error correction that is as international adopted standard. In data networks the TCP protocols takes care of error checking and re-transmits when a network package was not received in good state. A digital audio stream only transmits the stream without any checksums what so ever. The receiver cannot determine whether there were errors. It all comes down to limiting jitter and trying to sync clocks as good as possible. We're now in 2015 and didn't make any progress... strange

So in my believe, expensive streamers provide a better sound but will never guarantee bit perfectness. AIR does. But AIR is unstable.

I'll put my money (only $300) on the Dialog which will solve the AIR issues and deliver bit perfect streaming that other high end streamers (a few $1000) still will not be able to.

I hope at the end of 2015 we will have a Dialog and a stable accompanying Spark app that provides Tidal, Qobuz, Deezer and Spotify

BTW Today I installed AIR as was amazed by the quality. I use a Lenovo Windows 7 laptop. Configured it for 24/192, 1000ms buffer. No drop outs. I must be one of the few reading all the Air issues and poll results. I praise myself lucky. AIR is nice but usability sucks in comparison with e.g. the squeezebox interface. I assume the Spark app will address this too in the future making it a (near) perfect solution.

Thanks for the input. I am currently using AIR with JRiver media center and the JRemote I pad app and its fantastic in my opinion.
If Dilaog does all of the above I will be very happy. The problem I have right now is the white noise issue which is affecting my enjoyment.

[Womaz]

Yes the Aurender N100 is on my list.
I guess its more a general question I am asking. Will a streamer add a significan improvement in SQ over AIR.?
To me the 200 sounds brilliant with AIR and that could because I am still in the process of loving the new sound I am hearing from the 200 purchase.

Reason I ask is that I have stuck the CLIC back in the set up today and it is so inferior to AIR. I know this is not digitally connected but is that why it sounds so inferior.

Hi womaz as I wrote in September last year when talking about streamers: "Having said that the elephant in the room here is AIR. If sound quality is your most important criteria you might want to compare it to AIR before parting with any cash." See post 126 below:

http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=253&page=13

It's also worth having a good read through that thread as we address this question in quite some detail.

Guillaume

Thanks a lot, thats a brilliant thread and I read most of it. Very detailed and I have picked up a lot of useful information.

I think more than anything it backs up my original thoughts. AIR will do the job for now until more substantial funds are available. Say 5 to 6k. My original thought was then better speakers, ie PMC26s or SF Olympica II. Also picked up that maybe that sort of cash spent on a streamer could also give similar improvements.

If the AIR problem was not there I would just sit back and see what develpos as the cash will not be saved till end of the year. What was worrying in that thread was the poll on AIR in September 2014.......so I guess its really not a priority for Devialet.

I have also been reading the thread on the Melco kit too.

Thanks again for the reply, very helpful indeed.

[thumb5]

I guess its more a general question I am asking. Will a streamer add a significan improvement in SQ over AIR.?

Honestly, I think that's a very difficult question for anyone to answer except you...because the question implies the words "in your system, in your listening environment, to your ears".  Of course the answer also depends on what you consider to be significant, and how much money you're willing to spend to achieve an improvement.  So there are many factors involved, most of which are subjective or personal.

While it's very interesting hearing what other people have to say, and it can give you some good starting points, I suggest you should try to audition some streamers in your system and see for yourself whether or not you think they sound significantly different from / better than AIR.

Don't forget that it's not necessarily all about the sound quality.  For me, it's very important that the streamer and its control software are reliable and easy to use; I'd sacrifice the last word in sound quality to be able to easily choose what I want to listen to and have it play without any worries over software crashes, drop-outs, etc., etc.  I suppose that's a conclusion you've also reached after having some problems with AIR.