Whats wrong with my system

[Damon]

I'm not much of an expert on anything hi-fi, but I had set up with some similarities to yours: a 220 Pro CI running into Dali Epicon 2's, fed with a Bluesound module from a NAD M32; basically the same as a Node 130. The Dali's are not bright, and there was no flatness or lack of depth, or bass. In fact, my wife still misses that system.

I had SAM down to 50%, or thereabouts. and it helped the midrange nicely. Higher settings did limit bass at higher volumes, but that is no surprise. I'm just thinking that there must be something in the system that is interfering with the reproduction. But you did say that you tried a CD player into the Dev via optical. Any other settings in the Configurator that have been changed, even by some mysterious gremlin?

My standards for sound are probably much lower than that of others here, but I can't see why the basics of the Dali's and Dev 400 would be lacking in any meaningful way.

Is this a new set up? New house? Have you been happy with the system before?

[Ecki]

Assuming your setup is correct, did you use Epicon 8 or Devialet in a different combination before ... and did like it?
Or did you switch from a completely different set to this combination?

Epicon 8, in my eyes, is a beautiful, impressive speaker. I had both Epicon 6 and 8 at home for testing with D200 and i really would have loved to keep the 8s.
But my dealer had warned me in advance - Epicon 8 is a very power hungry speaker, not easy to drive.
And to be honest, D200 was miles away from being able to drive them adequately - sound was really poor.
(BTW not so the 6s ... finally i bought them)

Next thing was to delete SAM from the configuration. Epicon 8 did not improve significantly from that, but Epicon 6 began to shine, esp. at higher volumes ... which i need, as there are a lot of air molecules to move in that (living) room.

In meantime i switched to D400, but unfortunately i don't have access to Epicon 8 anymore.


Finally, my advice is to test without SAM. If that does not work, too, i suppose the combination of Devialet and Epicon 8 simply isn't a good one...
Could be one of those speakers, that need an amp with a massive transformer built in ... whatever the Devialet specs say.


BTW. Epicon is close to reaching the end of the road. In 2024 Epikore will take over afaik

[Pim]

As@David A says, your room looks to be a problem and treating that will most certainly give you the best bang for your buck. Try this little trick; take a couple of small cushions and hold them beside your head. That will block part, but not all reflections in the room. If that gives you an improvement, you can be damn sure your room has too many hard surfaces. Room treatment doesn't have to be costly. Anything that absorbs will help. The thicker the better. Have a go with whatever you have sitting around; Mattresses, thick blankets, an old doona, whatever. The first reflection point on the side wall should be the first place to cover. If you want to know where that is, sit in your listening seat and have someone slide a mirror along the wall. The point where you can see your speakers in the mirror is the first reflection point.

Another point can be where you sit. David already pointed to that too. Move your seat backwards and forwards to find where the bass sounds best. If there is no good spot for bass, ten bass traps will help, but in a room that size, I can't see it to be too big an issue. i.e. there will be some place where the bass sounds good, you just have to find it.

I have found 'Get Better Sound' by Jim Smith a very valuable book to learn all about speaker setup. In my opinion, what I've learned from that book has had a bigger impact on my sound quality than anything else I've bought, and it's the cheapest to boot. Over the years, Jim has found that if the distance between the two tweeters is 83% of the distance between the tweeters and your ears on average he had the best results. I used that as a starting point. Mine are now somewhere in the high 70% mark. Yours are at 70%, so try a little wider.
BTW, I find it quite stupid of Dali to tell you that you don't need toe in. Every room is different so every setup should be a matter of trial and error. Anyone who comes up with a set of 'rules' in my opinion doesn't know what they're talking about. I include the Wilson Audio Setup Procedure, The Cardas calculator and others. They are a starting point at best. Always play with width, tilt, toe in, back to from movement. Only by trying will you get the best results. It takes time and effort.

On the equipment front:
1. Your speaker cables probably don't help either. I've tried revealing cables and I've so far found nothing to sound more natural than my Canare 4S11 cable. It's cheap, yes, but it actually has some science behind it. Blue Jeans sells them all made up. If you want to do a bit of DIY, Cliff cables on the Gold Coast sells them by the meter.

2. I've never liked the Ethernet connection on the Devialet. USB sounds better, but I've recently tried the Holo Red streamer into AES/EBU and that sounds much more natural again.

3. I've found a good power conditioner to make a hugely positive impact on the SQ.

Saunter, I've listed everything above in a specific order for a reason. I reckon that this list should be looked at from start to finish in that order. There's no use buying any equipment unless you have a good sounding room and have your seat and speakers set up properly. In my opinion, when it comes to equipment, the three above should start with 1, but 2 and 3 can be swapped. Just be aware that a good power conditioner is a lot more expensive than the streamer.

Hope that helps. If you're ever around Northern NSW, send me a PM and come and have a listen to my setup. It'll all make sense quite quickly.

Until you have done any of the above, why not turn the treble down a bit? It's a band aid, but at least you'll be able to enjoy your music a bit longer.

[disarmamant]

The OP seems to have gone very quiet, I wonder if the problem has been fixed.

[Pim]

The OP seems to have gone very quiet, I wonder if the problem has been fixed.

Too busy enjoying the music

[disarmamant]

Too busy enjoying the music

Let’s hope so!

[Saunter]

Hello,

I have been doing a lot of messing around through the week.

A couple of notes :
I forgot to say earlier that i have an SBooster feeding the fanless NUC.
Also, previous to the latest update i was running the NUC from Wifi with my Devialet Master connected to the NUC through shielded Ethernet.
After the update (which was a while ago) i could not get Roon to work through Wifi which is why everything is now connected via ethernet.

The first thing i did was rearrange the room a few different ways and played with the exact speaker location.
First reflection points turned out not to be a problem due to furnishings.

I ended up with the speakers against the same wall and at the same .75 meters from the wall.
They are now 2.3 meters apart with a slight toe in and the listening position is now forward at 2.8 meters.
This helped a lot. I am now getting some sound stage depth and the the overall tone is much better.
I have not been able to achieve that locked in imaging yet but will keep playing with slight adjustments.
On some recordings it is pretty great but on others such as Keith Jarret's Koln Concert it just doesn't come together.
Obviously all recordings are different.

I have turned SAM down to zero for all the changes and once i get everything else baselined i will start to adjust it.

In ROON i turned all DSP off and turned off the track processing along with a couple of other tweaks i read about.
I don't know if any of this made a difference apart from turning the DSP off which audibly softened the presentation a tiny bit.

The iFi power supplies used to be pluged into the Isotek Sigmus but now they are pluged into the wall.

I bought all new Ethernet cables. All Cat 6 UTP just because they are cheap and it is worth the exercise just in case there was an issue somewhere. I also added two iFi Lan Silencers. One into the NUC and the other into the switch. The Acoustic Revive one goes into the Devialet Master. This exercise did reduce a touch of the brittleness. Just occassionally previously i could also hear distortion but that now seems to have vanished.

I have also experimented with the various speaker cables i have laying around.
These include Mogani 3103 and 3104, Canare 4S11, The Artisan Silver and Neotch 3001 8AWG OCC Copper.
Not sure yet which i prefer.

The Silver is by far the clearest hear through sounding. It is a big margin and why i bought them in the first place.
The Neotech puts more meat into the presentation and increases sound stage depth...bass is tremendous, so deep and also textured.
However voices lose detail and separation is reduced. To me i would rank these two as equal but different.

Then comes the Mogami 3104, then the Canare and 3103.
At this stage though i am just noting the differences between them rather than which i ultimately prefer.

So, upshot is everything sounds much better through a combination of changes.
It is not where i want it yet, particularly in terms of sound stage imaging.
Tonally things are much better regardless of which speaker cable i am using.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I will keep experimenting with the fine speaker position adjustments.

James

[Pim]

It sounds like you made some leap frog changes to the quality of your system's sound James. Whilst reading this, I decided to put Keith's Koln album on and there's lots of left ad right stuff going on, but nothing sounds centred (I'm on the first song only though) so it might be you're trying to achieve something that just isn't there.

[markush]

In ROON i turned all DSP off and turned off the track processing along with a couple of other tweaks i read about.

What settings did you adjust?

[Vivialet]

The main problem for most systems is room acoustics. My room is 4x5m, and all speakers I had so far (quite a lot) always have a bass peak around 45Hz and a big sink (around -10db) from 80-120 Hz. I have seen similar issues in other rooms as well, also in a room which is about 4x8m. There the sink is from 60-100 Hz. In my case there is no possible speaker placement that would solve the issue. Using an EQ to boost this range to flat is not an option, you would loose these 10db of dynamic range and also this would overload the room and possibly the speakers.
This sink is the reason that it sounds flat and thin!
My solution is using a subwoofer. This can be placed between the speakers where in most cases the room reacts completely different with less issues. Then I use the crossover of the Devialet for a highpass of the speakers (60Hz, 24Db in my case). The sub can cover the range where the sink is. Best option is to use something like a miniDSP to correct the subwooofer response. In most cases this is the only way to get a good bass response. In comparison to all the other tweaks this is fairly cheap, around 350€ for a miniDSP 4HD and a microphone.