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iFi ZEN Stream
#11
Delija Wrote:Basically, I'm a little confused Smile with so much talk on the forum about external streamers.

What you don't like about internal streamer - e.g. UPnP and/or Roon?
Why do you need external streamer?

The point of Devialet architecture should be usage as all-in-one device, with one unique clock for all parts of the system, the shortest signal path, minimum possible jitter, etc...

Of course - I'm talking about current Devialet Expert generation - Pro with CI.

I don't see what cheap external solutions could bring (I've tried some, of course) and higher class streamers are far from cheap and it's questionable whether it's reasonable to put them in the system with Devilalet.

Do you need an external streamer? No.

So need is the wrong word. Possible benefits are:

1. Stability (Some find streaming via the CI board is 100% stable, others have issues)
2. Flexibility (For example, I use HQPlayer, which is not possible with the CI board)
3. The never ending hunt for marginal gains in sound quality.

Re point 3. This is just for some crazy obsessive Audiophile types. Frankly you are far better off being happy with the very fine sound quality that the Devialet and CI board delivers, and simply enjoying the music.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#12
1. With good network and 100 Mbit/s limit on LAN port used by Devialet - I find it 100% stable for UPnP and Roon (RAAT and Air)

2. I understand usage of HQ Player with DACs which "like" DSD256 or DSD512 input, or maybe even upsampled PCM. I think Devialet is not one of them.

3. I fully understand this part Smile, but in that case the next step is probably something else - other than Devialet. I think Devialet is not a good platform for this kind of "sport". That's one of the reasons why I bought it - to limit my options Big Grin When I want somewhat different sound - I move my speakers or sofa or I play a little with subwoofer setting. So yes - this part is 100% true - we like to introduce some changes from time to time. Usually just different is good.
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#13
(08-Sep-2021, 14:25)Delija Wrote: 1. With good network and 100 Mbit/s limit on LAN port used by Devialet - I find it 100% stable for UPnP and Roon (RAAT and Air)

2. I understand usage of HQ Player with DACs which "like" DSD256 or DSD512 input, or maybe even upsampled PCM. I think Devialet is not one of them.

3. I fully understand this part Smile, but in that case the next step is probably something else - other than Devialet. I think Devialet is not a good platform for this kind of "sport". That's one of the reasons why I bought it - to limit my options Big Grin When I want somewhat different sound - I move my speakers or sofa or I play a little with subwoofer setting. So yes - this part is 100% true - we like to introduce some changes from time to time. Usually just different is good.

Yes I get that, and to be honest I think our views are not that far apart. 

I think perhaps that I might have a slightly different perspective though, for some fairly specific reasons.

In terms of having a Devialet, I currently have zero desire to swap the amp for something different, or for a "different" sound. In the past I tried many amps with the Blades, and I suspect that the general subjective preference for me between one amp or another was dictated by the subject amplifiers output impedance. So assuming two amps could drive the Blades OK and had reasonable specs, I tended to prefer whichever one had the lowest output impedance. 

So as a bonus question here, does anyone know of a decent amp with a lower output impedance than a Devialet?

I also like SAM. I know that some do and some don't, but SAM works for me in my system.

So as I said above, I have zero desire to change the Devialet for anything else, I suspect that I will keep mine for many more years.

This therefore leaves my current and quite specific quest, which is to extract as much performance as possible from my Devialet.

So far with the Mutec kit etc., I think I have achieved this, or achieved a very slight improvement over CI Board RAAT if you like.

I'm happy and the quest will continue. One interesting aside to my latest experiments with the iFi is that it will allow me to happily sell my SOtM kit, keep the iFi and this will also simplify my set-up a little. This will also place my hifi spending for the year in the negative, and I will also have a "spare" Paul Hynes SR4 to do something with. Which is quite a good result I think.

Some might think this is bonkers, and they might have a point! But I'm happy. I am very much enjoying my system and the music at least.

EDIT: There might be a good topic for a new thread here. "What is the point of an external streamer with an Expert Pro", or something like that.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#14
Maybe you are right Wink

https://devialetchat.com/Thread-Why-do-y...ro-with-CI
Devialet Expert 440 Pro | Dynaudio Confidence 50 | 2x SVS SB16-Ultra
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#15
I spent much time trying many things with the Zen Stream this weekend. I mentioned in an earlier post that I was happy to try the Zen direct to the Devialet, and perform a comparison to CI Board RAAT. This is both for the greater good of the forum, and also because it I thought I might learn something of interest to myself. This first of these is not for me to comment on, this is indeed debateable, but I did learn something, lets say the results were not exactly what I expected.

I started off setting the Zen, sMS200 and Devialet as Roon zones. The Zen was connected directly to the Devialet via S/PDIF, the SOtM kit via the MC3+USB / Ref10. A quick check to check for level matching etc., then it was possible to set music playing on all three zones, and listen to the different playback methods from the listening position, selecting via the remote app.

This all worked surprisingly well, with Roon remote on an iPad and the Devialet remote on an iPhone, it was easy to rapidly swap between the three methods, listen to the same section of music, and so on.

I could write very much about all of this, but I will try to keep this simple. The first observation that I made was just how close the three playback methods were. I could pick up some small differences, but in absolute terms there was nothing utterly sensational here, the differences were relatively minor. In terms of a basic ranking, the criteria being which method did I prefer overall, I concluded the following:

From best to worst:

1. SOtM / Mutec
2. CI Board
3. Zen Stream

It was not quite that simple though, flicking through different tracks and music, there were some cases where I was a little surprised just how good CI Board RAAT was versus the SOtM / Mutec kit. Plus, there were some tracks where I slightly preferred the sound staging with the Zen over CI Board RAAT. So the Zen may be ranked "worse" in the above list, but in absolute terms it was still very good, and possibly other ears than mine might have given it second place. Overall, all three sounded good, the differentiating points were in little details, sustain, ambience, snares, all a little nicer and crisper via the SOtM / Mutec combo, but overall, not a lot in it really.

But the above got me thinking..... When I was comparing the Zen to the SOtM kit via the MCS+USB / Ref10, there were also times when I felt the Zen was better with the sound stage thing. So having decided on the above ranking, I thought I would try the Zen into the MC3+USB versus CI Board RAAT. Here the Zen / Mutec combo was best, but again, not a lot in it.

Then came the big surprise of the day. I switched the Zen back to running HQPlayer for a direct comparison to the CI Board. Having spent a long time struggling listening to very minor stuff to separate the various playback methods, now the differences were much easier to discern.

I revisited things this morning. This time running the Zen with HQPlayer direct via S/PDIF vs CI Board, and again Zen / HQPlayer / Mutec. Two points here, firstly this changes the ranking, and secondly this was a much easier A/B test, straight away the differences were very clear. From best to worst is as follows:

1. HQPlayer / Zen / Mutec
2. HQPlayer Zen S/PDIF direct to Devialet
3. CI Board RAAT.

The differences with the above were most obvious on things like symbols, snares and similar, which were much crisper and easier to discern in the mix.

I then wondered if this was not so much the benefits of HQPlayer, but up sampling itself. So I then switched to up sampling in Roon, using settings that most closely matched what I am using in HQPlayer at the moment. Even trying this, the above holds true, I much preferred the Zen / HQplayer over CI Board RAAT.

Also, there were a couple of times that I got some slight stuttering and drop outs when using RAAT CI Board at 24/192. This was slightly disappointing. Yes, I know those on the Roon forum will tell me that I am a luddite and that I don't know how to set my network up, but routinely using HQPlayer 24/192 with the SOtM kit, and later with the Zen, everything works flawlessly, and has done for years. So there is something going on here,

So in conclusion, if you use Roon RAAT and the CI Board works for you with a reasonable degree of stability, then I my ears tell me that the Zen does not have that much more to offer. If you are interested in trying HQPlayer, then the Zen Stream works perfectly when up sampling to 24/192, and my ears tell me that Zen Steam offers a very decent hike in SQ, well worth £399, and does indeed offer a lot of the goodness that I might otherwise have attributed MC3+USB / REF10.

As a supplementary conclusion, I believe that the CI Board is capable of being run as an HQPlayer NAA, from a hardware perspective at least. Of course, this would require Devialet enabling this as a feature, something I doubt they would want to do as I am guessing that demand is not high for such a use case. That said, and there is a degree of speculation here, based on this weekend's experiments I suspect that CI Board HQPlayer NAA might get very close indeed to the Mutec MC3+USB / REF10 combo, maybe even a match. Plus, it would most likely be trouble free at 24/192.

I know others have mentioned that they prefer the CI Board via DLNA Audirvana / JRiver etc. Quite what it is from a technical perspective that leads my ears to hearing what they hear I am not sure, but maybe there is some commonality here with the reason that have led to others to prefer Audirvnana DLNA and similar.

I still plan to try the Zen Stream via USB, and via wifi, but that is more than enough A/B testing (and A/B/C testing!) for now. It might also be interesting to try the Zen back on Roon RAAT, and up sampling to 24/192, to see if I get the same stuttering that the CI Board delivered.

I am out of time for now, but when I get a chance I will add some of my thoughts and experiences to Delija's external streaming thread.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#16
Try Devialet Air instead of RAAT. I find it clearly better than RAAT - still not good as UPnP.

BTW, during the comparisons I found one interesting Devialet bug - subwoofer pre-outs on 440 Pro are 1 dB louder when using Devialet Air - compared with other sources I use, including UPnP and RAAT. It took some time for me to catch why there was such significant difference in sound.
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#17
Thanks for taking the time to do all these critical listening experiments. I’m using the Zan with a Devialet 120. 

After playing it for the weekend I am finding that the Zen connected by ethernet and outputting USB sounds best into my 120. I use room to upsample to 24/192 and DSD 64, and the Devialet by itself is unstable in this mode. 

The Zen fixes all of that and sounds just as good as the Devialet direct via Ethernet, if not a little better. For what it’s worth, I am also powering the Zen with an HD Plex 300 LPS. 

Thanks again and enjoy.
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#18
@Delija - As I was getting some stability issues with CI Board RAAT at 24/192, I decided then try the Roon integrated AIR, also at 24/192. This worked for a while, then made a strange buzz noise, then worked for a bit with the odd stutter. Because of this, I gave up after two tracks. From what I heard from there two tracks, I would not say that the sound was much different to RAAT, I think my comments in my earlier post would stand. I also did a CI Board Roon RAAT vs Roon integrated AIR comparison a while ago, I did not think there was much difference. UPnP might be better of course, but I did not try that, something for another day.

@ismarketing - It is interesting that you have tried two things that I have not, the Zen via USB and DSD64. These are both things I intend to try in the fullness of time. I would also note that my comments above are for use with a Devialet Pro, the results of the comparison would likely be very different with an Expert model. As an example, I found that using a microRendu + Mutec MC3+USB provided a nice step up in sound quality on my old Expert D800. With the 1000Pro, using the microRendu + Mutec MC3+USB provided pretty much identical sound quality when compared to AIR. So in other words, I think it is much easier for an external device such as the Zen to offer an improvement on an Expert than it is for a Pro. It looks like this is what you are experiencing now. Obviously I cannot try this as I no longer have my D800.

When you say that you prefer the Zen via USB, I presume you mean in comparison to the Zen via S/PDIF?.

I note that you are using the Zen with Roon. If you ever have the time and inclination, I suggest that you try using Roon with HQplayer, and feed the Zen in HQPlayer mode. Roon works exactly the same with HQPlayer as it does with any other device, you simply select HQPlayer as a Roon zone. Also, you can try HQPlayer as a free trial. You get full functionality of HQPlayer in trial mode, it just stops working after 30 minutes and you have to re-load it if you want to keep listening. For me this is a great combination, you get the functionality of Roon with the sound quality benefits of HQPlayer. From what my ears detected yesterday, the Zen sounded a lot nicer in HQPlayer NAA mode. (and I have been using this mode for a few weeks now, with 100% stability, zero issues) Just a thought, if you ever fancy trying it.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#19
I don't know why you have issues with Roon and hi-res material - with LAN port limited to 100 Mbps I have zero issues - it works 100% perfect.

BTW, there are differences between RAAT and Devialet Air and since you already mentioned cymbals - this is something which sounds somewhat different. Devilaet Air (in my system!) has better resolution, transparency and "air" - but, as I said, not quite on the level of UPnP.


I'm really curious how would UPnP behave in your system. Preferably with the combination I use - MinimServer + BubbleUPnP controller app.
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Anthem MRX 720 | Dynaudio Excite X28 | Dynaudio Emit M20
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#20
(13-Sep-2021, 11:53)Delija Wrote: I don't know why you have issues with Roon and hi-res material - with LAN port limited to 100 Mbps I have zero issues - it works 100% perfect.

BTW, there are differences between RAAT and Devialet Air and since you already mentioned cymbals - this is something which sounds somewhat different. Devilaet Air (in my system!) has better resolution, transparency and "air" - but, as I said, not quite on the level of UPnP.


I'm really curious how would UPnP behave in your system. Preferably with the combination I use - MinimServer + BubbleUPnP controller app.

I don't know either! 

One point, I was not limiting to 100 Mbps. If that is what makes the difference I could easily retry this sometime.

It remains curious why something like the Zen (and the SOtM kit) seems to work perfectly whatever I do with it, whereas the Devialet does not.

Regarding UPnP, in my normal listening I am now using Focus Fidelity convolution filters. So if I was to try UPnP for a while I would want to keep this as an option. JRiver could do both I think.

Edit: As for clarity of cymbals and snares, this was a clearly obvious difference between RAAT and HQPlayer. So it would be interesting to revisit this with UPnP / DLNA.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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