A few questions have emerged here:
@Pim - What is it about the sound that makes it the best you had ever heard? A good question, and I have to be honest here, it has now been about four years since I have listened to one, and since this time I have moved from the Expert to The Pro. I even had a search through this forum to find any listening observations that I may have made nearer the time. I did find some, but these were somewhat imprecise, just stating "it sounds superb" does not tell us much. (other than it sounded superb) OK - A massive caveat here as I am going from long term memory, but picking up on you specific points I do not recall it sounding "more full bodied". It is more of a case of sounding more natural, coherent, and this with the detail. I listened to the Upsampler on two occasions. One time we we tried running AES/EBU to the Devialet comparing upsampling to 24/192 to DSD64. This I remember well, because OAC's Alasdair and a guy from dCS both claimed that it sounded best this way. I was of the opinion that this was unlikely, the Davialet needs a PCM feed, so all were are doing is taking 16/44.1 PCM, upsampling this to DSD64, for the Devialet to then have to use the "MAT Engine" to convert back to PCM. Anyway, after listening for myself, I had to agree that I was wrong, to my ears as well it sounded better in DSD64 mode. At his time someone mentioned the phrase "it sounds more engaging", this I remember well because it is just about as good a way as I can think of describing it. The presentation with the Updampler is more engaging, it is like one step away from the irritations of audio reproduction and one step nearer to the real thing.
Of course, you would need to listen for yourself to understand if "a bit more natural and engaging" is worth the considerable expense.
One thought occurs to me, if we do go back four years in time, I thought the the best things I have heard with a Devialet were the Aurender N10 and W20, and then the small step up to the dSC Upsampler. (all capable of feeding the Devialet via AES/EBU), but now things are different as we have moved to the Pro models. The point is, I would say that the difference between the Expert and Pro is greater than the difference between the D800 fed by an Audernder N10 and the dCS Upsampler. it is after all a digital source, so there is a limit to what it can do to the overall sound quality of the system. Or to put it another way, if you want "more full bodied", spend the money on different speakers, if you want "more detailed", the Pro most definitely delivers this over the old Expert model. So I would say the Upsampler could be considered as the "icing on the cake" for a system that you were already satisfied with, it is unlikely to transform a system you are not happy with to one that you are. The worlds most expensive cake icing perhaps.
I recall that @f1eng and @Guillaume were at the OAC event where they were running the Upampler with a D800. As it happens, I can actually remember discussing it with f1eng, he did not say too much about sound quality, he just commented that he used AirPlay to play a track from his 'phone to the Upsampler, and said he was impressed by how good the system sounded running this way. I think Guillaume described it as a "game changer", which is similarly useful to my "sounds superb", I guess. @Guillaume - apologies for putting you on the spot, and I am mindful that all this was four years ago, but can you remember anything about how the Upsampler sounded?
@salk61 of the 2 dCS products which one would be a better choice? The Vivaldi Upsampler or the Rossini DAC; the latter is only $1000 more expensive. - OK this one can be explained.
Two DCS products, but you would be doing something very different between the two. The Upsampler is the purist choice and from a technical perspective the way to go. All you are doing with the Upsampler is producing a very high quality digital feed via AES/EBU for your Devialet. With the Rossini, you first need a digital source to feed the Rossini itself, which could be as simple as a computer running Roon. The Rossini is a DAC, so the output is analogue, which you would then feed to the Devialet. The Rossini is a fine dac so will produce a high quality analogue output, but when feeding this to the Devialet, the first thing the Devialet will do is convert the analogue this to digital using it's ADC, as the Devialet needs PCM digital to feed the ADH core. The ADH core will then convert this digital back to analogue and amplify. As @Jean-Marie mentions, the Devialet is transparent enough that you would get the "flavour" of the Rossini, which for some reason you might subjectively enjoy, but you are still using the Deviaet DAC, which although is good, it is not measurably 100% perfect, neither is the Rossini, so you have two measurably imperfect devices in the chain, when you only need one, and that with the Devialet ADC on top.
I would put it this way, in other threads there have been lots of discussions about Devialet measurements. Whatever you make of these measurements, one thing is clear, the various inputs to the Devialet measure differently. In terms of hierarchy, the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) inputs come out on top, with the lowest measured noise and lowest distortion, the analogue inputs come out bottom, with relatively higher noise and distortion. Why? Well there is no mystery here, the analogue input had the extra step of the analogue digital conversion in the chain.
So, with the Upsampler you have a very expensive box that should provide a very high quality input to the best measuring input on you Devialet. Although costly, this does make some sense from a technical perspective. With the Rossini, you have a very expensive box that will force you to use the worse measuring input of your Devialet. This makes little sense, and in absolute technical terms would offer inferior performance to just using AIR or USB. Subjectively, there might be some out there that would prefer the sound of the Rossini, for them the best advice would probably be to sell the Devialet and use a more traditional amplifier for power.
@Pim - What is it about the sound that makes it the best you had ever heard? A good question, and I have to be honest here, it has now been about four years since I have listened to one, and since this time I have moved from the Expert to The Pro. I even had a search through this forum to find any listening observations that I may have made nearer the time. I did find some, but these were somewhat imprecise, just stating "it sounds superb" does not tell us much. (other than it sounded superb) OK - A massive caveat here as I am going from long term memory, but picking up on you specific points I do not recall it sounding "more full bodied". It is more of a case of sounding more natural, coherent, and this with the detail. I listened to the Upsampler on two occasions. One time we we tried running AES/EBU to the Devialet comparing upsampling to 24/192 to DSD64. This I remember well, because OAC's Alasdair and a guy from dCS both claimed that it sounded best this way. I was of the opinion that this was unlikely, the Davialet needs a PCM feed, so all were are doing is taking 16/44.1 PCM, upsampling this to DSD64, for the Devialet to then have to use the "MAT Engine" to convert back to PCM. Anyway, after listening for myself, I had to agree that I was wrong, to my ears as well it sounded better in DSD64 mode. At his time someone mentioned the phrase "it sounds more engaging", this I remember well because it is just about as good a way as I can think of describing it. The presentation with the Updampler is more engaging, it is like one step away from the irritations of audio reproduction and one step nearer to the real thing.
Of course, you would need to listen for yourself to understand if "a bit more natural and engaging" is worth the considerable expense.
One thought occurs to me, if we do go back four years in time, I thought the the best things I have heard with a Devialet were the Aurender N10 and W20, and then the small step up to the dSC Upsampler. (all capable of feeding the Devialet via AES/EBU), but now things are different as we have moved to the Pro models. The point is, I would say that the difference between the Expert and Pro is greater than the difference between the D800 fed by an Audernder N10 and the dCS Upsampler. it is after all a digital source, so there is a limit to what it can do to the overall sound quality of the system. Or to put it another way, if you want "more full bodied", spend the money on different speakers, if you want "more detailed", the Pro most definitely delivers this over the old Expert model. So I would say the Upsampler could be considered as the "icing on the cake" for a system that you were already satisfied with, it is unlikely to transform a system you are not happy with to one that you are. The worlds most expensive cake icing perhaps.
I recall that @f1eng and @Guillaume were at the OAC event where they were running the Upampler with a D800. As it happens, I can actually remember discussing it with f1eng, he did not say too much about sound quality, he just commented that he used AirPlay to play a track from his 'phone to the Upsampler, and said he was impressed by how good the system sounded running this way. I think Guillaume described it as a "game changer", which is similarly useful to my "sounds superb", I guess. @Guillaume - apologies for putting you on the spot, and I am mindful that all this was four years ago, but can you remember anything about how the Upsampler sounded?
@salk61 of the 2 dCS products which one would be a better choice? The Vivaldi Upsampler or the Rossini DAC; the latter is only $1000 more expensive. - OK this one can be explained.
Two DCS products, but you would be doing something very different between the two. The Upsampler is the purist choice and from a technical perspective the way to go. All you are doing with the Upsampler is producing a very high quality digital feed via AES/EBU for your Devialet. With the Rossini, you first need a digital source to feed the Rossini itself, which could be as simple as a computer running Roon. The Rossini is a DAC, so the output is analogue, which you would then feed to the Devialet. The Rossini is a fine dac so will produce a high quality analogue output, but when feeding this to the Devialet, the first thing the Devialet will do is convert the analogue this to digital using it's ADC, as the Devialet needs PCM digital to feed the ADH core. The ADH core will then convert this digital back to analogue and amplify. As @Jean-Marie mentions, the Devialet is transparent enough that you would get the "flavour" of the Rossini, which for some reason you might subjectively enjoy, but you are still using the Deviaet DAC, which although is good, it is not measurably 100% perfect, neither is the Rossini, so you have two measurably imperfect devices in the chain, when you only need one, and that with the Devialet ADC on top.
I would put it this way, in other threads there have been lots of discussions about Devialet measurements. Whatever you make of these measurements, one thing is clear, the various inputs to the Devialet measure differently. In terms of hierarchy, the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) inputs come out on top, with the lowest measured noise and lowest distortion, the analogue inputs come out bottom, with relatively higher noise and distortion. Why? Well there is no mystery here, the analogue input had the extra step of the analogue digital conversion in the chain.
So, with the Upsampler you have a very expensive box that should provide a very high quality input to the best measuring input on you Devialet. Although costly, this does make some sense from a technical perspective. With the Rossini, you have a very expensive box that will force you to use the worse measuring input of your Devialet. This makes little sense, and in absolute technical terms would offer inferior performance to just using AIR or USB. Subjectively, there might be some out there that would prefer the sound of the Rossini, for them the best advice would probably be to sell the Devialet and use a more traditional amplifier for power.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
