First impressions

[Vince_JP]

Curious is that Devialet isn't clearly positioning the white and the silver differently and leave customers quite alone in their choice. The white papers are similar, more power seems to be needed for the last 4db at 103 (exponentiel need?). May be  they are assuming that "audiophiles" would go for the "most uppermost"; or silver just perform better outdoor or on discoparty. Anyway I was wondering why Devialet doesn't make recommandations as to usage/stage/experience.... For myself, I opted for the lower power bill... and as most users here I'm delighted with my 2 white Phantoms since 3 months.

[Jean-Marie]

Absolutely. Currently volume 70 corresponds to 0dB attenuation. Assuming a simple direct proportional rule, and since the white peaks at 99dBA SPL while the silver peaks at 105 dBASPL, I would think that if you are listening on a silver below a volume setup of 64 (-6 dB) and up to 0 on a white, you should hear absolutely no difference between the two. And yes this is an exponential need: you need 4 times the power to go from 99 to 105 dB.

I would also tend to experience (since 107 dB is about the peak capacity of my system D120 + 88dB speakers) is that I'm listening between -12 dB and 0 dB on classical music and Jazz but more around -20 dB to -15 dB on the rest and this is quite representative of the DR difference. So I would tend to think that for classical or jazz music a silver would be more needed than if you are mostly listening to music with a lower DR.

[f1eng]

I listened to the silver and definitely hear more dynamics and better bass. Devialet made the silver version for a reason. Can't be just for aesthetics.

Of course there is a reason, it is capable of a 6dB higher maximum loudness. That is all, everything except the maximum available power and the silver bits is the same.
Whilst 99dB is plenty for most people in a modest room, some may have a big room and sit further from their speakers, or just play louder. For them the Silver may well be worthwhile, thats why I chose silver over standard.
I have not heard standard ones but there is no mechanism whereby they could sound any different to a silver if the level being listened to requires more than 750 watts.

At the same sound level they will both use the same amount of power, so unless playing consistently above 99dB (particularly at low frequencies) they will both use the same amount of electricity.

[Dvlt PhD]

...Sound is impressive. Clean, detailed and rich. Very adjustible in volume. From 0-100. 0-10 is for dreaming, 20-40 normal listening volumes. Around 50 for work out or party. 60-70 is perfect when listening to dynamic classical music or when you want to feel the bass kick you in your stomach. Above 70 is for the insane. These things play L O U D (standard Phantoms, not even the Silver).
Good thing is the 'night modus' which filters out most of the bass tones. Very suitable when listening music later in the evening or when you're worried about the neighbours. ...

So I was doing some research, and found this page specifically. I'll read on later, but for now, can some of the Silver Phantom owners please take a look at the quoted message in Bold above, and try to answer the following questions, please?

Well first of all, a question for michirishi. creator of the quote, above:

When you say "volume 0-10 is for dreaming", do you mean a volume level low enough that eventually one could fall asleep, if trying to fall asleep while listening at that level?

Or, do you mean, a volume level to lay down, close your eyes, and dream up the music you're listening to? AKA, create a picture of the sound; get transported by the music; etc; etc.?

And now, the questions for Silver Phantom owners:

If on the regular Phantom, michirishi uses volume 0-10 to experience one of the aboves (or both),...what volume would you have to set the Silver Phantoms to, to get the same experience as michirishi did using volume 0-10?


Thank you, :)



Dvlt PhD

I'll try to explain in detail. We are two months further and I still think the same as above. Here's a little more detail.
My room is about 40m2. I am still waiting for 'branch' so my white Phantoms are placed on 30cm high, solid wooden cubes, 0,7m before a 4m wall with some floor-to-ceiling windows in it, about 2.5m apart. Listening position is about 3.5m in front of phantoms.

Volume to me is like this:
0-5 perfect when going to sleep. Music is so quiet one could easily fall asleep beside is. Yet the sound quality is already present. Bass is audible as well as some detail. Voices are very clear.
5-8 perfect when practicing yoga or reading a book. Good to enjoy music with your eyes closed and dream away on the soundscape of some ambient or new-age music. This is probably the level you are refering to.
8-10 has a rather steep drop off in sound level.
10-15 is easy listening volume (to me at least). Very suitable late at night or when someone else is watching a movie with headphones on and you don't want them to 'enjoy' your Phantoms - for that time :) . On this level, I often find myself completely involved in the music. You don't have to play the Phantoms loud to enjoy some good quality music!
15-25 around dinner time. Nice for background music. Very good soundquality! I also find myself listening long music-sessions to this level sometimes.
25-45 normal listening volume. Lots of detail. Very, very good. This is when the white Phantoms really shine in my living room.
45-60 things get louder. Too loud when one wants to have a conversation. Perfect to be completely involved in the music and feel the rhythm throughout your body. Music can be heared throughout my 3-floor house. Audible when standing outsidie.
60-70 good when listening dynamic classical music. Or a few pop/rock songs if you want to feel a little bass. But it is loud. Only advisable when the neighbours are away.
70-80 simply too loud. Only good for famous 'woofer dance'. No sane person would listen to this for any longer than a few seconds. People will turn their heads when walking past your house.
>80 you will be affraid your ears will pop or the windows will blow out... (yet there is no distortion at all. Everything is still very smooth in a strange way. Very different than on ony 'normal' hifi set. Probably due to S.A.M).

I've managed 85 for a few seconds only once. When I wanted to test my white Phantoms, I didn't have the courage to go any louder.  :angel:

In the beginning I had some doubt if I'd better had bought the silver Phantoms. But I absolutely see no reason for that at all (esthetics aside).

Wow! What a detailed feedback reply!

Well, I guess I should give myself some credit, too... It was a good question :)

Thank you so much, michirishi!

I listened to the silver and definitely hear more dynamics and better bass. Devialet made the silver version for a reason. Can't be just for aesthetics.

Interesting. Well, this leads to more questions, though... Like, what volume was used with both standard and silver; at what volume did you notice a difference in the silver; were the standard and silver using same connected peripherals, or different...

I'm thinking by your response, you haven't done a side by side comparison.


Thanks, :)

Curious is that Devialet isn't clearly positioning the white and the silver differently and leave customers quite alone in their choice. The white papers are similar, more power seems to be needed for the last 4db at 103 (exponentiel need?). May be  they are assuming that "audiophiles" would go for the "most uppermost"; or silver just perform better outdoor or on discoparty. Anyway I was wondering why Devialet doesn't make recommandations as to usage/stage/experience.... For myself, I opted for the lower power bill... and as most users here I'm delighted with my 2 white Phantoms since 3 months.

It's a good point. (Maybe they don't want to come out like they'd be teaching children...). Regardless, it wouldn't come out negatively for them, I think.

Glad you're enjoying your Phantoms.

Absolutely. Currently volume 70 corresponds to 0dB attenuation. Assuming a simple direct proportional rule, and since the white peaks at 99dBA SPL while the silver peaks at 105 dBASPL, I would think that if you are listening on a silver below a volume setup of 64 (-6 dB) and up to 0 on a white, you should hear absolutely no difference between the two. And yes this is an exponential need: you need 4 times the power to go from 99 to 105 dB.

I would also tend to experience (since 107 dB is about the peak capacity of my system D120 + 88dB speakers) is that I'm listening between -12 dB and 0 dB on classical music and Jazz but more around -20 dB to -15 dB on the rest and this is quite representative of the DR difference. So I would tend to think that for classical or jazz music a silver would be more needed than if you are mostly listening to music with a lower DR.

Very interesting reply. Replies like this make me use google a  lot. :P

I'm sure it would be better if I knew how to read the db details. :)   (-12 dB; 0 dB; -20 dB; -15 dB )

Bold 1: Do you mean, you would think that between volume 0 and 64, both standard, and silver, should have no audible difference, because it doesn't go above 0db attenuation at that volume?  

Bold 2: between volume 58 and 70?

Bold 3: around volume 50 to 65?

Oh wait, I'm thinking as if you have Phantoms...but, since the Expert line uses the same technology as the Phantoms (just not in the same amount probably), it might apply similarly...


Thanks :)

I listened to the silver and definitely hear more dynamics and better bass. Devialet made the silver version for a reason. Can't be just for aesthetics.

Of course there is a reason, it is capable of a 6dB higher maximum loudness. That is all, everything except the maximum available power and the silver bits is the same.
Whilst 99dB is plenty for most people in a modest room, some may have a big room and sit further from their speakers, or just play louder. For them the Silver may well be worthwhile, thats why I chose silver over standard.
I have not heard standard ones but there is no mechanism whereby they could sound any different to a silver if the level being listened to requires more than 750 watts.

At the same sound level they will both use the same amount of power, so unless playing consistently above 99dB (particularly at low frequencies) they will both use the same amount of electricity.

Nice reply while interestingly being a reassuring latest post...


Bold 1: I find this confusing... :s

Bold 2: Meaning that if I don't go above 99dB on Silver, electricity bill should be the same regardless of whether I get a Standard or Silver?



Now that we're talking about  electricity bills, how is it looking for all you early adopters? Seriously, though. :P :D
I'd like to know what I'm getting into :scared: 



Thanks!



Dvlt PhD

[Gremlin]

Now that we're talking about electricity bills, how is it looking for all you early adopters? Seriously, though.
I'd like to know what I'm getting into cared:

A good point. Is the extremely low efficiency of the speakers really reflected in power consumption at lower SPL levels? In fact, what is the max power consumption? I know the power of the amps, but not their efficiency.

[trashken]

If you can afford the Phantom Silvers... i'm sure you can afford the bill...

[Jean-Marie]

Now that we're talking about  electricity bills, how is it looking for all you early adopters? Seriously, though.
I'd like to know what I'm getting into cared:  

A good point. Is the extremely low efficiency of the speakers really reflected in power consumption at lower SPL levels? In fact, what is the max power consumption? I know the power of the amps, but not their efficiency.

This is completely different because of SAM.

if you look at 3kW to reach 105 dBA SPL it means an efficiency of 70 dB for the speakers. However, this is only true at the lower end of the spectrum. given the size of woofers and that there are two of them, I would think that at soon as you are in 100 Hz or more you are more into an efficiency in the 95 dB (I'm using a typical response curve for woofers of similar size). Contrary to passive speakers design where you need to align the efficiency of the speaker to its lower point and therefore is dissipated as heat by the filters, SAM and active amplification adapts and therefore the phantom is low efficiency only on the lowest part of the spectrum.

Add to this that the ADH amplification is very efficient (very close to class D from an efficiency perspective since the class A part is only a 6W amp) I really doubt that when playing music you would see any significant difference between a pair of phantoms and a expert system paired with 90+ dB. If what you are listening to is pure tones at 16 or 25 Hz, though you would see a difference, but musical programs are rarely that way.

[deviousalet]

Users are reporting measuring Phantom power consumption of 30-40W each in standby (purely wasted energy use).

I measured a D200 (firmware 7.1.1) using 5W when off, 8.5W in standby, 26-29W to drive B&W N802, and 36W to drive KEF LS50.

So using two Phantoms uses twice as much power as a D200 paired with conventional speakers of moderate or high efficiency.

Obviously if I can afford Phantoms then the power bill won't bankrupt me, but I consider power consumption when making purchasing decisions. If a pair of Phantoms suck 80W when idle I would wind up turning them off when not using them, which makes them less convenient than the Expert series.

I would very much appreciate more power consumption data about the Phantoms, so anyone with Phantoms and a watt meter please give us more real information.

I'd also like data about boot times. The D200 took around 13 sec. to boot up from being powered off. How long do Phantoms take from power off to playing music? Thanks!

[f1eng]

The amount of power being used by Phantoms, and to a slightly less extent Expert with SAM, will depend entirely how much low frequency information there is in the music you are listening to, and how loud you are playing.
The only time they will be taking a constant amount of power will be in standby.

The figures for the B&W and KEFs playing music would be varying not fixed, and with SAM would vary a lot if there is the occasional deep bass.

I disconnect my kit from the power when not using it, but have never timed how long to boot either my 800 or the Phantoms, though I guess the Phantoms are quite a bit longer since I have launched Spark and only had 1 speaker showing at first.

Compared to the two Krell KSA 200b stereo amps I used with my active Apogee Divas the Devialets use negligible power, and can comfortably be used in summer

[Dvlt PhD]

Users are reporting measuring Phantom power consumption of 30-40W each in standby (purely wasted energy use).

I measured a D200 (firmware 7.1.1) using 5W when off, 8.5W in standby, 26-29W to drive B&W N802, and 36W to drive KEF LS50.

So using two Phantoms uses twice as much power as a D200 paired with conventional speakers of moderate or high efficiency.

Obviously if I can afford Phantoms then the power bill won't bankrupt me, but I consider power consumption when making purchasing decisions. If a pair of Phantoms suck 80W when idle I would wind up turning them off when not using them, which makes them less convenient than the Expert series.

I would very much appreciate more power consumption data about the Phantoms, so anyone with Phantoms and a watt meter please give us more real information.

I'd also like data about boot times. The D200 took around 13 sec. to boot up from being powered off. How long do Phantoms take from power off to playing music? Thanks!

The button on the Phantom, from what I've read here, is not acting as an "On/Off" button. More like a "Reset/Restart" or whatever button.....since the power consumption is constant as long as it's connected to the wall socket.

I hope Devialet can fix this through firmware updates. If I spend $5K on this, I'd be pissed if Devialet comes out with a Phantom v2, better than the current one...


Based on the resolution people are taking here ("HomeKit" related and similar),  going through the initial setup everytime one powers them up, it shouldn't be a deal breaker, as long as it stays simple, and/or improved.

I might simply get the new iPod Touch that is assumed to come out later on this year; get some "HomeKit" devices that are not released yet, and control the On/Off of the Phantoms/Dialog through the iPod Touch. Turn the Phantoms + Dialog into "1 scene", in HomeKit, and all I have to do is toggle on/off that "scene" with iOS. No need to turn them on/off one by one. Except for the setup when turning them on.  Later, I might just get the Ipad Pro, too.