Devialet amplifier power ratings and AC mains regenerators

[MusicFirst]

Perhaps I still miss the Audio Research valves midrange; and yes, the Devialet is plugged in the PP, shouldn't it be?



PS Audio PP- Devialet 250 - Sonus Faber Stradivari + SAM - Tellurium Black diamond Speaker Cables - Audionet CD (ART G3) - Michell Orbe (SME V, Koetsu Red Signature) - MacBookPro on Yosemite - Audirvana - Airport Extreme & Express

I would suggest that plugging the D250 directly into the wall and your source components into the PP will be the best setup for you.  If your PP has 2 banks of outlets, plug all your digital into one bank and your TT into the other.  The 250 requires more power than almost any power conditioner can provide, over 3000 watts peak!  Even the PS Audio PP Premier or P10, the largest PS Audio power plants ever made only provide 1500 watts.

Every once in a while, bypass the PP from the system to make sure you prefer the PP in the system.

[Manoet]

Perhaps I still miss the Audio Research valves midrange; and yes, the Devialet is plugged in the PP, shouldn't it be?



PS Audio PP- Devialet 250 - Sonus Faber Stradivari + SAM - Tellurium Black diamond Speaker Cables - Audionet CD (ART G3) - Michell Orbe (SME V, Koetsu Red Signature) - MacBookPro on Yosemite - Audirvana - Airport Extreme & Express

I would suggest that plugging the D250 directly into the wall and your source components into the PP will be the best setup for you.  If your PP has 2 banks of outlets, plug all your digital into one bank and your TT into the other.  The 250 requires more power than almost any power conditioner can provide, over 3000 watts peak!  Even the PS Audio PP Premier or P10, the largest PS Audio power plants ever made only provide 1500 watts.

Every once in a while, bypass the PP from the system to make sure you prefer the PP in the system.

You sure about the 250's wattage needs? Reason I ask is if that's true it wouldn't be able to run on any 120V US NEMA 15A outlet which is only rated for 1,800 watts or even a 20A outlet reliably that's rated for up to 2,400 watts. Least that's my understanding. But I'm going on NEMA specs and not personal experience.

[Antoine]

Perhaps I still miss the Audio Research valves midrange; and yes, the Devialet is plugged in the PP, shouldn't it be?



PS Audio PP- Devialet 250 - Sonus Faber Stradivari + SAM - Tellurium Black diamond Speaker Cables - Audionet CD (ART G3) - Michell Orbe (SME V, Koetsu Red Signature) - MacBookPro on Yosemite - Audirvana - Airport Extreme & Express

I would suggest that plugging the D250 directly into the wall and your source components into the PP will be the best setup for you.  If your PP has 2 banks of outlets, plug all your digital into one bank and your TT into the other.  The 250 requires more power than almost any power conditioner can provide, over 3000 watts peak!  Even the PS Audio PP Premier or P10, the largest PS Audio power plants ever made only provide 1500 watts.

Every once in a while, bypass the PP from the system to make sure you prefer the PP in the system.

I've seen many people stating this but I think it's a general misconception. Yes, the Devialet's are specced to provide peak powers of 3000W but this power is very short term power served from it's internal power storage (capacitors), not directly 'from the wall'. The Devialet's internal fuses are rated 6.3A and it's maximum power consumption (at the wall) is specced at 600W.

A power plant can deliver power with a lower power output impedance than your wall socket can, so it's "easier" for your amp to draw power from it. The P3 can deliver 40A, P3 50A and P10 70A of instantaneous current which is also more than your wall can. This because they too have an internal power storage for short term power serving. Can't find that number for the discontinued PPP.

The numbers you mention (1500W) are the continuous load numbers. The rated safe continuous load for a P3 is 1200VA and peak 1500VA., P5 1500VA, peak 1800VA and P10 1800VA, peak 2000VA. The conditions for these peak numbers aren't specified but they are relatively long (I think minutes compared to fractions of a second) compared to both the "instantaneous current" specified by PS Audio and the 'peak power' specified by Devialet.

Of course we don't have a clue what the exact numbers are for the short term power delivery. With this I mean: can the Devialet's power supply deliver 3000W for 200us, 1ms, 20ms, 500ms, ... ? Same goes for the power plants which are in fact also power amplifiers producing one single frequency (50/60Hz).

[Manoet]

This makes more sense to me... but just a LOT!

[PhilP]

..... the Devialet's are specced to provide peak powers of 3000W but this power is very short term power served from it's internal power storage (capacitors), not directly 'from the wall'. The Devialet's internal fuses are rated 6.3A and it's maximum power consumption (at the wall) is specced at 600W.

A power plant can deliver power with a lower power output impedance than your wall socket can, so it's "easier" for your amp to draw power from it. The P3 can deliver 40A, P3 50A and P10 70A of instantaneous current which is also more than your wall can. This because they too have an internal power storage for short term power serving. Can't find that number for the discontinued PPP.

The numbers you mention (1500W) are the continuous load numbers. The rated safe continuous load for a P3 is 1200VA and peak 1500VA., P5 1500VA, peak 1800VA and P10 1800VA, peak 2000VA. The conditions for these peak numbers aren't specified but they are relatively long (I think minutes compared to fractions of a second) compared to both the "instantaneous current" specified by PS Audio and the 'peak power' specified by Devialet.

Of course we don't have a clue what the exact numbers are for the short term power delivery. With this I mean: can the Devialet's power supply deliver 3000W for 200us, 1ms, 20ms, 500ms, ... ? Same goes for the power plants which are in fact also power amplifiers producing one single frequency (50/60Hz).

That's a very helpful clarification - thanks Antoine.

Presumably you find your P3 totally adequate for powering the 250? Do you use it to power other components as well?

[Confused]

For those who fancy a bit of light reading, much historic debate on power regenerators / conditioners etc can be found here.

http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=223

[MusicFirst]

This makes more sense to me... but just a LOT!

Here is the response that I got from Devialet Support when enquiring about the power consumption of my D400s:

"Dear Sir,
Thank you for your message.
The unit consumes at least 600W in continuous, and 3000W peak. But it depends as you can imagine of the type of sound you listen too.
Also, please note that it is not a consumption in watts per channel, but rather per device."

The stated rating is the same for the D250 as for each D400 monoblock.

In my 30 years pursuing the audio holy grail, I have gone down this road many times, including a PS audio 1000, and there is only one way for you to tell, and that is to listen for yourself, but I can say that I have never heard a system with state of the art sound that has an active device between the amp(s) and the wall.

There is one device that I might try for my amps made by Torus (Plitron) Power , but this device is rated at 7200VA continuous power output (30 amps x 120 volts x 2 'zones') with a 240v balanced 30 amp input.  This is almost 5 time the RMS power rating of PS audio's most ambitious effort.  It also supplies 400 amps peak for 20 ms.  This device is untouchable in terms of current delivery, with the exception of their own higher power devices and with the possible exception of the Isotek Titan.  Plitron also makes tons of OEM power supplies for some very high end amplifiers.

If you haven't tried the configuration I have suggested, please do.  If the PS audio is better to your ear in every way, especially with respect to micro and macro dynamics, plug the D250 back into the PP and you're good to go.  But if you hear anything negative with the PS audio, you're better to leave the D straight into the wall and work on the system from other avenues.  Sometimes you need to take one step back in order to take two steps forward.

As always, let your ears be the judge.

Kerry

[PhilP]

Just been reading about the PS Audio P3 and the high current output is filtered which surprised me as the consensus view is very clearly that whilst mains regeneration doesn't negatively impact sound if done properly, mains filtering should be avoided. I'm confused? (And yes, I do know that there's a built in mains filter on the Devialets IEC input)

[Antoine]

That's a very helpful clarification - thanks Antoine.

Presumably you find your P3 totally adequate for powering the 250?  Do you use it to power other components as well?

Yes, I am very happy with the P3, my set sounds better with it. I'm powering not only my 250 with it but also the linear power supply of my music server and even my active subwoofer (1500W peak power usage). During general use total power usage today is 104W. I have to do strange things like turn up the volume to really uncomfortable levels to let that number rise significantly.

Please remember on average/typically we only need 1W of power off the binding post to produce around 90dB SPL from a single loudspeaker. Some loudspeakers are of course more, or less efficient.

This makes more sense to me... but just a LOT!

Here is the response that I got from Devialet Support when enquiring about the power consumption of my D400s:

"Dear Sir,
Thank you for your message.
The unit consumes at least 600W in continuous, and 3000W peak. But it depends as you can imagine of the type of sound you listen too.
Also, please note that it is not a consumption in watts per channel, but rather per device."

The stated rating is the same for the D250 as for each D400 monoblock.

In my 30 years pursuing the audio holy grail, I have gone down this road many times, including a PS audio 1000, and there is only one way for you to tell, and that is to listen for yourself, but I can say that I have never heard a system with state of the art sound that has an active device between the amp(s) and the wall.

There is one device that I might try for my amps made by Torus (Plitron) Power , but this device is rated at 7200VA continuous power output (30 amps x 120 volts x 2 'zones') with a 240v balanced 30 amp input.  This is almost 5 time the RMS power rating of PS audio's most ambitious effort.  It also supplies 400 amps peak for 20 ms.  This device is untouchable in terms of current delivery, with the exception of their own higher power devices and with the possible exception of the Isotek Titan.  Plitron also makes tons of OEM power supplies for some very high end amplifiers.

If you haven't tried the configuration I have suggested, please do.  If the PS audio is better to your ear in every way, especially with respect to micro and macro dynamics, plug the D250 back into the PP and you're good to go.  But if you hear anything negative with the PS audio, you're better to leave the D straight into the wall and work on the system from other avenues.  Sometimes you need to take one step back in order to take two steps forward.

As always, let your ears be the judge.

Now really, my hijacking days are over.  

Kerry

That reply of Devialet really is THE biggest bull shit (pardon my French ) I've ever seen them write!! I'd write back and ask for an explanation by an educated engineer, not the interpretation of the specs by a 1st level support employee. "At least" (read: a minimal) of 600W power usage continuously...if wasn't so sad it would be funny.

Anyone who owns a simple power usage meter can see that it uses no where near that. My 250 uses 31W playing music inputted through USB @ -25dB volume setting, DPM off!

Again what the numbers mean is that the internal PSU of a Devialet can output 600W continuously (steady long term without overheating/breaking down/etc.) and peaks of 3000W (short term only).

Yes, it's all somewhat controversional or better said there's many differing opinions. I agree everyone should be their own judge and decide for themselves after auditioning one in their own system. I'm not going to defend what I am hearing (or think I am hearing ). All I know is that I like it (and the 250 on it) and many others do as well.

Just been reading about the PS Audio P3 and the high current output is filtered which surprised me as the consensus view is very clearly that whilst mains regeneration doesn't negatively impact sound if done properly, mains filtering should be avoided. I'm confused?

Only the P3 has such an filtered output without regeneration, the P5/P10 don't. No idea why PS Audio decided to include it.

I've never noticed (macro) dynamic restrictions using power filters and I've owned the Furutech TP-60e, PS Audio Duet and a PS Audio Dectet. Please note that the only amplifiers I used on those are a Lyngdorf TDAi2200 and the D-Premier/D250. Both are fairly energy efficient devices. Again plenty of people use filtering mains distributors, the cliche is true: YMMV

On a general note, the P3 isn't the only modification I've made. There's also a dedicated spur from the AC cabinet (which is also modified, no DIN rail but old fashionedly "hard wired" and it uses the old fashioned Neozed fuse, in this case a HiFi Tuning one ) using a custom HiFi-tuning solid core power cable with seperately shielded neutral and line cables and a shield surrounding line, neutral and earth together. Then a Furutech double wall socket and a Lessloss DFPC power cable into the P3 which also has a HiFi Tuning fuse.

[Antoine]

One more thing, I've read considerable amounts of text before purchasing the P3 and one of the things that stuck with me is that the P3/P5/P10 don't 'sound' like the older P300/P500/P1000 or even the PPP. No one can state an opinion on the P3/P5/P10 based solely on having heard these older models!