A Confused streaming system - Mutec / SOtM Ultra

[octaviars]

So a big surprise.  I guess I have never been 100% convinced by the SOtM kit, but I did not expect my "£200 off eBay" universal device to edge it out.  Maybe something to do with taking the PC and network out of the chain, and instead using a simple bit of audio circuitry to send a digital file to the MC3+USB?  Maybe a result of taking USB out of the chain altogether? 

There is no way of telling for sure.  Which ever way you look at it though, it does indicate that there is a little bit of extra performance to be gained somewhere from the streaming system.  This has also got me thinking again about that Weiss DSP501, which outputs S/PDIF AES/EBU, I wonder what the retail price will be?

 
The question you wrote @Confused "maybe a result of taking the USB out of the chain altogether" is something I have asked myself after trying out a different streamer runing AES to my TAD dac. Either USB from my SOtM rigg is not as good as the streamer I tested runing AES or perhaps the USB input on my DAC is not as good as the other inputs.

The Weiss looks intresting but after a bit of Googeling I found prices in Hong Kong and with added VAT it looks like a 501 will cost around £7000 and a 502 around £8000 (could be more or less). That is a lot of money for just having an endpoint outputing AES even if Weiss have a lot of functions built in to the DSP models.

I still think you should try a dCS Network Bridge with AES directly to your Devialet that would be intresting as it sounded really good in my system and a much lower price than Weiss.

[Confused]

@baconbrain - I enjoyed your link, a very similar scenario, I even replied at one point in your thread, but the universe tilting continues.  One difference with your Oppo experience is that I was running my Arcam through the Mutec MC3+USB/REF 10.  When I have time I will try a direct comparison between the SOtM/Mutec kit and the Arcam direct to the Devialet  via S/PDIF, depending on the result, that could be an extreme universe tiler.

@Axel - Yes, indeed a shame, I suspect we could have struck a deal on the Cambridge Audio.  Maybe we should encourage a "want to buy" section on the forum?  I know I have a few bits lying around that I might sell if someone asked, and personally I would much rather buy from a known forum member that taking my chances on eBay.  A want to buy section might be quite good?  Can easily be done in the existing for sale section of course, maybe something we should all keep in mind?

@octaviars - I did have a plan to try the Network Bridge.  This plan receded somewhat following the recent SOtM firmware updates, a case of me being keen to try the NB because I was not happy with the SOtM kit, to being a case that I am happy with the SOtM kit and I doubt the NB would provide much more than a small incremental improvement at best.  The SOtM kit also has the benefit of HQPlayer compatibility.  So maybe one day, but I have other things to try in the short term, see below.

I have a very busy week and spent most of my time away from my system.  I have been thinking a lot about last week's result with the Arcam performing so well for sound quality.  I think this is a very lucky discovery, because I now have a second source that is almost identical the SOtM kit for sound quality.  This could be very useful for verifying a few tweaks.  For example, a while ago when changing my rack and layout of the kit, I took the SOtM modified ethernet switch out of the chain, and it has never gone back.  To compare the system with or without the SOtM kit would be a case of listening to a playlist, then very much faffing around swapping out the switch, getting Roon and HQPlayer to talk to Eunhasu again, and so on.  Usually when doing this, Eunhasu crashes, much hassle getting everything to work again, by which time I am in a bad mood and have forgotten exactly how things sounded with the previous switch.  This is not a good way to look for those subtle differences.  But now I have the Arcam as a kind of benchmark, I could install a new switch or whatever, and then do immediate A/B swaps between the two methods of playback.  Immediate and hassle free playing the same song, much better, and much easier.

On my "to do" list is to try this with the SOtM switch.  I also have a plan to try the SOtM kit direct to the Devialet's USB, taking the Mutec MC3+USB out of the chain.  In this scenario I could try direct A/B swaps between Arcam +Mutec (which sounds virtually the same as SOtM to Mutec to Devialet) with the SOtM kit direct by USB.  Depending on the results of this, I could try running HQPlayer, DSD64, SOtM USB, direct to the Devialet, with direct swaps between the "benchmark" Arcam + Mutec route.  I am sure you get the idea.  The SOtM kit is now powered by a pair of Paul Hynes SR4's, maybe this will provide an advantage over the SMPS powered MC3+USB?  Now I can do direct A/B comparisons, these checks will be much easier to do as it eliminates relying on aural memory.  It surprises me to think that I have had the SOtM kit for over a year and never tried it direct to the Devialet's USB input, but now I can do these direct A/B comparisons I have become a lot keener to try it.  So lots to try before considering spending lots of cash on the Network Bridge, or something like the Weiss for that matter.  Plus, if I do decide to spend significant money on something this year it really should go on room treatments, I suspect I have more to gain here than with further electronic tweaks from where I am now.  As an example, with my current setup, both corners of the room behind the Blades are completely empty, they are just 90 degree corners with nothing in them.  That can't be ideal.

[baconbrain]

+1 Regarding room treatment. Regardless if through DSP or classical means, it is on the top three „must do list“ for me.

Friend of mine had a guy (guru type) come by who walked around his listening room and just clapped his hands. After a bass trap here, and couple of absorbers there, that was really all there was to it, but it made a world of difference.

[octaviars]

So lots to try before considering spending lots of cash on the Network Bridge, or something like the Weiss for that matter.  Plus, if I do decide to spend significant money on something this year it really should go on room treatments, I suspect I have more to gain here than with further electronic tweaks from where I am now.  As an example, with my current setup, both corners of the room behind the Blades are completely empty, they are just 90 degree corners with nothing in them.  That can't be ideal.

I think that is a very good way of looking at it, the room can and will affect the sound so much more than tinkering with cables and gizmos. I would love to have a more dedicated room for my stereo where it would be more easy to implement some form of room acoustics.

On a personal plane I have come to the conclusion that I dont want all these small boxes and lots of cables going between them and next weekend a dCS Network Bridge will come my way perhaps permanent how knows time will tell

[Vivialet]

I tried 3 different ways of sending music to my Devialet 1000 Pro CI:
1: via USB, 2 stacked MC-3 USB and a REF 10 with Roon
2: via ethernet, optical converters and an Aqvox SE switch with Roon
3: same as 2, but now using the Devialet CI streamer via uPnP and Audirvana

My SQ preference has exactly the reverse order: 1 < 2 << 3. Not sure if the switch and optical converters still make a difference now.
Via uPnP there is simply more detail and more precision. No reason to buy any external boxes at all. I need to do more testing but it also seems that 3 sounds the same on my standard Windows 10 and my optimized (AO, Fidelizer) Windows 2019 partition.
Which makes sense as uPnP has an error correction while AIR and RAAT maybe have not.

[Confused]

@baconbrain @octaviars - I am currently doing a bit of research into room treatment, an interesting topic, which looks to be half science and half black art to me. The science is clear, but there is a subjective side to making the room sound "dead" with absorption versus adding "space" with diffraction. As an example of the science, when measured with REW the obvious problem in my room is a "null" at about 120Hz. The wavelength of a 120Hz wave in air is about 2.86m. This is not far off the distance between each speaker and the corresponding far side wall, and is roughly half the distance to the rear wall. So with some simple calculations I can start to identify issues. I did find some stuff on the internet about room treatment specifically with the KEF Blade, this stated that decent absorption on the side walls is essential due to the Blade having side mounted bass drivers. Match this to my null calculation, it gives some indication as to what I should be trying. In terms of researching room treatments, I would say that I have now reached the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" stage, so I am not ready to start buying anything just yet. My mid term plan is to do a bit more research so I have a better understanding myself, and then get some professional advice.

As a curious aside, I have been trying some fine tuning of the speaker positions recently, just an inch or two movement here and there, but this has make a surprising difference. In my current favorite speaker position, I can just see the reflection of one of the Blade's Uni-Q drivers as a reflection in the Perspex cover of my turntable, so I have my TT cover as partial "first reflection point". Now that I have discovered that my Blu Ray player sounds just as good as my old dedicated CD player when playing CD's, this means I can take the CD player out of the system, lose one shelf from the rack, and get the TT's Perspex cover out of the "first reflection point" zone. Wheels within wheels as they say, but I am optimistic this should make some kind of improvement. I did even have a crazy thought about making a foam room treatment cover for my TT cover, but that was probably a little impractical and obsessive. Might be fun to try though.

@Vivialet - A very interesting observation re UPnP and via the CI board. In the past I have tried head to head tests of my Mutec SOtM kit versus AIR and Roon AIR, but I have never tried critical listening with UPnP. I have tried JRiver UPnP / DLNA (I am never sure what the difference is) via the CI board, so at least I know this works. In addition, I am interested in Audirvana, simply because it is just about the only "audiophile" quality music player that also supports individual track ratings, which are one of my pet loves for reasons I don't need to go into here. So I will give this a try sometime. In my case I do not have any optical converters, and I am not likely to buy optical converters as I am patiently waiting for the Uptone EtherRegen, which I believe is due to be released at the end of this year. In addition, in my case I can run UPnP / DLNA to either the CI board, or to the sMS-200Ultra, so there are a few options I could try in this regard, I will definitely give this a go when I have time.

I have also had some additional thoughts of things I can now easily A/B test now I have my Arcam USB stick streamer as a "reference". One is to try the old microRendu again, mR to tX-USBultra to Mutec MC3+USB. Another would be to try the sPS-500 to power my router. I suspect this will make zero to very little difference, but now I have a direct A/B reference it might be worth a go. Currently the sPS-500 is sat on a shelf doing nothing, so worth a try I guess.

As a final point, @octaviars - please keep us informed as to how you find the dCS Network bridge versus your SOtM kit, this is a very interesting comparison.

[Vivialet]

Hi Confused,
if you use jRiver for uPnP there are some possible traps in the setup. If you add the Generic DLNA jRiver converts everything to MP3 by default. So either use the Audiophile 24 bit option or change the conversion in the DLNA settings to PCM 24. But even then Audirvana sounds better and is easier to configure.
Using the Devialet CI board has the big advantage that all processing is done in the Devialet. You can hear that if you simply switch off the PC, the music simply continues. And for me the difference is so big (in comparison to Roon/Air) that I don't think there is any better external solution.

If you try Audirvana: it only recognizes the Devialet as uPnP device if it is connected to the first Ethernet adapter. Also changing the volume is not perfectly working. But both is fixed in the current beta already.

[Confused]

Hi Confused,
if you use jRiver for uPnP there are some possible traps in the setup. If you add the Generic DLNA jRiver converts everything to MP3 by default. So either use the Audiophile 24 bit option or change the conversion in the DLNA settings to PCM 24. But even then Audirvana sounds better and is easier to configure.
Using the Devialet CI board has the big advantage that all processing is done in the Devialet. You can hear that if you simply switch off the PC, the music simply continues. And for me the difference is so big (in comparison to Roon/Air) that I don't think there is any better external solution.

If you try Audirvana: it only recognizes the Devialet as uPnP device if it is connected to the first Ethernet adapter. Also changing the volume is not perfectly working. But both is fixed in the current beta already.

Many thanks for the tips, I had no idea about the JRiver / DLNA / MP3 issue.  With respect to Audirvana, I do not understand what you mean by "the first Ethernet adaptor".  In my case the path is PC to router to Ethernet switch to Devialet, a configuration that would be very difficult for me to change due to the layout of the room and the PC location.  Will Audirvana not work with this configuration?

[Vivialet]

If your PC has two or more Ethernet cards you have this problem. My PC has an Intel and a Qualcomm adapter. One is used for Internet connection and Wifi, the other is directly connected to the Devialet. In my setup Audirvana detects the Qualcomm at first, so the Devialet has to be connected to this one. If I connect it to the Intel Audirvana does not find it. The beta version has a selector now.
So no issue with your setup.

[octaviars]

As a final point, @octaviars - please keep us informed as to how you find the dCS Network bridge versus your SOtM kit, this is a very interesting comparison.

It might be that I sell my SOtM kit this week and will pick up a dCS this coming weekend. Got a really good deal on it so not much money vs. what I get for my old stuff.
So the comparison between them will be difficult and when I had the dCS on loan I felt it was more my cup of tea than SOtM (still the SOtM kit  with Paul Hynes is really good) and it simplifies my system.