Developping a stereo system replacing spark + dialog

[BlackMamba]

Hi there

Reading different reviews and after a quick listening session of one phantom recently, I am willing to buy 2 phantom gold next (the stereo setup looks to be such a big step)

But ... reading this forum, I got the confirmation that spark is awful and I am not convinced by dialog which is only connecting to the phantom using wifi.

Nowdays, you can easily get a superb hi-definition digital system with easy to use app like Raspberry + volumio for example.

 Idea is therefore to set two optical outputs (TOSLINK) on the board and separate Right and Left channels before sending them to each phantom. A bit of hardware and some software developments I bet...

I would like your advice about the idea of a open system managing all the part that Devialet looks not to do well and let the Phantom release good sound from a digital source.

Your remarks, advices, possible links to some existing elements, articles..., critics or counter proposal will be appreciated

Thanks in advance

[streamy]

The Dialog connects with the Phantom through 3 possibilities: PLC (preferred), ethernet, or Wifi. In my setup absolutely no problem and stable through PLC. I was using an RPi2 with volumio, first, then a RPi2 with Moode, then RPi2 and now RPi3 with Roon. The RPi is connected to one of the Phantoms through optical. The Phantom sends this signal via PLC to the Dialog where it is distributed to all Phantoms in my rooms as I choose. No problems at at all with streams up to 24/192kHz hires music. Of course you can try to home-built something different that uses the Phantoms in direct mode without need of Devialet SW. But you can get around using Spark if you want by using UPNP commands to change the Phantom volume. I do this with the Roon extension ‘Roon Web Controller’ where I have added a volume slider that sets the Phantoms volume without need of Spark. So my Roon Phantom system is basically freed from Spark. But on the Ipad/IPhone Spark is still very convenient to use as volume controller because I can use the physical Ipad or Iphone buttons to change volume without acces of the Spark software as long as it is running in the background. I’m quite sure this also works with Adroid devices. So maybe a little bit of volumio tweaking could allow volume control of the Phantoms. In this case I would suggest you to buy the Dialog with more than one Phantom. It really does its job well for most users. Spark is ugly from the user experience compared to Roon, but it is theonly SW I know that plays reliably tracks from local folders, Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, Deezer, many internet radio stations, Upnp servers, all in hires. I still use it for Qobuz streaming since Roon only has Tidal. It allows to play all playlists etc. It has a search function. But then the problem is that search is not intelligent like google search and a bit laggy. These are the things people complain and are right. Also there is no folder structure and no view of meta data. There is a ‘similar artist’ function that I actually like. Sorry, maybe I’m getting too extensive.

[ogs]

@streamy was quicker than me!


Hi @BlackMamba, welcome here!
I've been through these thoughts some time ago. I did not buy Phantoms because, at the time, it was too complicated to make it work...

Here are a few points:
1 Dialog can use powerline, wifi or ethernet to talk to Phantoms - so it is not only wifi.

2 If you want to use the native volume control of Phantoms you can follow your own idea with two TOSLINK ports splitting L/R in the streamer.

3 I believe you can do a similar setup by pretending that LEFT is one room and RIGHT is the other. By controlling both 'rooms' with a Dialog you still have volume control and sending signal to each Phantom with TOSLINK bypasses Dialog.

4 By setting the Phantoms to 'Direct Optical Mode' as per Q 11 in this post https://devialetchat.com/Thread-Last-min...6#pid76696 you'll drive Phantoms directly from the TOSLINK inputs, but you'll have to do volume control in the digital domain before it enters Phantoms.

I was researching option 2. I did not find a device that could split and route L and R over separate TOSLINK ports. No vendors (apart from Vincent at Totaldac) where willing to create L and R TOSLINK.
For 3 I am not certain so I hope a Phantom owner can chime in and tell us if this is possible.
4 is actually an 'installer' mode meant for use with the 'Dante dongle' or a MCH movie system.

I do not think Dialog has bad sound quality as such, it's more with its functionality, but for Spark I'd agree it is quite bad.

[daibaron]

@BlackMamba

Sorry i don't get your proof of concept.
The Dialog has a TOSLINK input (optical) and i use it when i connect the RPI+DAC to the Dialog.
What is the benefit of having a 2 optical inputs for audio L/R ? when the Dialog works OK and serve the purpose ?

[BlackMamba]

The Dialog connects with the Phantom through 3 possibilities: PLC (preferred), ethernet, or Wifi. In my setup absolutely no problem and stable through PLC. I was using an RPi2 with volumio, first, then a RPi2 with Moode, then RPi2 and now RPi3 with Roon. The RPi is connected to one of the Phantoms through optical. The Phantom sends this signal via PLC to the Dialog where it is distributed to all Phantoms in my rooms as I choose. No problems at at all with streams up to 24/192kHz hires music. Of course you can try to home-built something different that uses the Phantoms in direct mode without need of Devialet SW. But you can get around using Spark if you want by using UPNP commands to change the Phantom volume. I do this with the Roon extension ‘Roon Web Controller’ where I have added a volume slider that sets the Phantoms volume without need of Spark. So my Roon Phantom system is basically freed from Spark. But on the Ipad/IPhone Spark is still very convenient to use as volume controller because I can use the physical Ipad or Iphone buttons to change volume without acces of the Spark software as long as it is running in the background. I’m quite sure this also works with Adroid devices. So maybe a little bit of volumio tweaking could allow volume control of the Phantoms. In this case I would suggest you to buy the Dialog with more than one Phantom. It really does its job well for most users. Spark is ugly from the user experience compared to Roon, but it is theonly SW I know that plays reliably tracks from local folders, Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, Deezer, many internet radio stations, Upnp servers, all in hires. I still use it for Qobuz streaming since Roon only has Tidal. It allows to play all playlists etc. It has a search function. But then the problem is that search is not intelligent like google search and a bit laggy. These are the things people complain and are right. Also there is no folder structure and no view of meta data. There is a ‘similar artist’ function that I actually like. Sorry, maybe I’m getting too extensive.

Thanks Streamy

not "too extensive" but complete. I understand that Dialog is ok and it's then I agree it's probably better to go throught it than worth developping a specific element

However, I have to questions :

1- for how long have you been using your system ? I had bad experience in time with PLC.
2- volume control looks to be the bad point in what you say. Changing singnal (known as software volume control) is modifying the coding probably not the best way when you try to get it full digital up to the phantom. I didn't get how you manage it. Through spark ? Or is ther another way to manage phantom volume ?

Best regards

[BlackMamba]

@streamy was quicker than me!


Hi @BlackMamba, welcome here!
I've been through these thoughts some time ago. I did not buy Phantoms because, at the time, it was too complicated to make it work...

Here are a few points:
1 Dialog can use powerline, wifi or ethernet to talk to Phantoms - so it is not only wifi.

2 If you want to use the native volume control of Phantoms you can follow your own idea with two TOSLINK ports splitting L/R in the streamer.

3 I believe you can do a similar setup by pretending that LEFT is one room and RIGHT is the other. By controlling both 'rooms' with a Dialog you still have volume control and sending signal to each Phantom with TOSLINK bypasses Dialog.

4 By setting the Phantoms to 'Direct Optical Mode' as per Q 11 in this post https://devialetchat.com/Thread-Last-min...6#pid76696 you'll drive Phantoms directly from the TOSLINK inputs, but you'll have to do volume control in the digital domain before it enters Phantoms.

I was researching option 2. I did not find a device that could split and route L and R over separate TOSLINK ports. No vendors (apart from Vincent at Totaldac) where willing to create L and R TOSLINK.
For 3 I am not certain so I hope a Phantom owner can chime in and tell us if this is possible.
4 is actually an 'installer' mode meant for use with the 'Dante dongle' or a MCH movie system.

I do not think Dialog has bad sound quality as such, it's more with its functionality, but for Spark I'd agree it is quite bad.

Thanks Ogs

You all say that Dialog is working well which simplify the work.

In 1 you say that I can connect Dialog to Phantoms through internet. I then probably misunderstood. I thought the Dialog was organizing a separated network with the phantoms from the house intranet (acting as a router of this specific network). If it is the case, I cannot connect Phantom and Dialog as only one RJ45 is available on Dialog. If it use the house network then it's a lot better than wifi. The only negative point is that the stream is going to dialog and then to the two phantoms multiplying the bandwidth usage on the network.

2 & 4 are questioning the volume management. This is the one I am having problem with. I would need, as you mention, either to modify the signal    or to understand how to communicate with phantom to control it"s internal hardware volume management (better)

3, does it means that I will have to adjust the volume of each room separately in this case ?

Best regards

[BlackMamba]

@BlackMamba

Sorry i don't get your proof of concept.
The Dialog has a TOSLINK input (optical) and i use it when i connect the RPI+DAC to the Dialog.
What is the benefit of having a 2 optical inputs for audio L/R ? when the Dialog works OK and serve the purpose ?

I understand. I understand from all replies that I was wrong in considering Dialog in the weak points. The only benefit would be the pleasure to make it by myself but it's probably not worth spending my time on this subject. The volume control looks to be the one to focus on.

thanks

[Johnnydev]

@BlackMamba

Sorry i don't get your proof of concept.
The Dialog has a TOSLINK input (optical) and i use it when i connect the RPI+DAC to the Dialog.
What is the benefit of having a 2 optical inputs for audio L/R ? when the Dialog works OK and serve the purpose ?

I understand. I understand from all replies that I was wrong in considering Dialog in the weak points. The only benefit would be the pleasure to make it by myself but it's probably not worth spending my time on this subject. The volume control looks to be the one to focus on.

thanks

Buy the volume control from Devialet ?

[BlackMamba]

@streamy was quicker than me!


Hi @BlackMamba, welcome here!
I've been through these thoughts some time ago. I did not buy Phantoms because, at the time, it was too complicated to make it work...

Here are a few points:
1 Dialog can use powerline, wifi or ethernet to talk to Phantoms - so it is not only wifi.

2 If you want to use the native volume control of Phantoms you can follow your own idea with two TOSLINK ports splitting L/R in the streamer.

3 I believe you can do a similar setup by pretending that LEFT is one room and RIGHT is the other. By controlling both 'rooms' with a Dialog you still have volume control and sending signal to each Phantom with TOSLINK bypasses Dialog.

4 By setting the Phantoms to 'Direct Optical Mode' as per Q 11 in this post https://devialetchat.com/Thread-Last-min...6#pid76696 you'll drive Phantoms directly from the TOSLINK inputs, but you'll have to do volume control in the digital domain before it enters Phantoms.

I was researching option 2. I did not find a device that could split and route L and R over separate TOSLINK ports. No vendors (apart from Vincent at Totaldac) where willing to create L and R TOSLINK.
For 3 I am not certain so I hope a Phantom owner can chime in and tell us if this is possible.
4 is actually an 'installer' mode meant for use with the 'Dante dongle' or a MCH movie system.

I do not think Dialog has bad sound quality as such, it's more with its functionality, but for Spark I'd agree it is quite bad.

Just followed the link you put in your reply and end up to github ( https://github.com/da2001/phantom-bridge ). I don't have a Phantom yet so I will not be able to certify. But if I understand well what is there, it looks possible, if not easy, to communicate with the Phantom system and should allow to control the either from a small soft as presented or through a specific plug-in in best system as Roon, Volumio and so on...

Thanks a lot

[ogs]

The Devialet Chat link takes you to github? https://devialetchat.com/Thread-Last-min...6#pid76696
My intention was to link to the procedure of setting Phantoms to DOM. Can be found a bit down in thumb5's post:

Phantom questions:

11) Is it possible to have a switch in Spark that selects "normal", "zero latency" or "time-coincident" for Phantom?

A: There is a Direct Optical Mode with very low latency, but no control over volume as the operating software is bypassed - the Phantom just plays what it gets in optical input.

Joachim showed me the following procedure to engage this mode:
1: launch Phantom app (not Spark)
2: restart Phantom (3 clicks)
3: pair Phantom with app
4: on app, tap ten times between “mute” and “night” icons
5: select Optical Direct mode
6: select channel (L/R/mix)
7: select max. output level 0dB/-12dB