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Last minute Summer Devialet Event at OAC with Mathieu Pernot! 12 July 2018
#61
As promised, here's the first part of my notes from the event, which focuses on the questions formulated by @Hifi_swlon  and @Confused (post 32 of this thread)...

I hope I do justice to this.  Needless to say if anyone else at the event wants to chip in to add or correct my notes, please go ahead.

Expert Pro / General:

1) What is replacing the current Expert iOS volume control, and when’s it due for release? Also, please consider keeping and updating the current one, the design is great and just needs updating for current iOS, iPads, and add a few extra controls (like tone, SAM).

A: Devialet are planning a refreshed iOS app, which will maintain the rotary volume control but add capabilities to match the hardware remote (tone, SAM, RAM, ...). No timescale was discussed.

2) What are the plans for the web based configurator onboard the CI? Will it evolve to replace the current internet configurator, and ultimately remove the need for SD card configuration? Please share as much detail as you can.

A: The current on-board web interface was required to meet Airplay certification, and is not really intended for general use. There will be a proper on-board configurator (#3 on the priority list after Roon RAAT and Bluetooth support) but this will probably be a subset of the current on-line configurator.

3) What is the signal path for AIR on the CI, compared to AES/EBU and USB?  Or in other words, is there an optimum way to feed and Expert Pro with respect to ultimate performance / sound quality?

A: There is a new clocking architecture for “legacy” inputs (those not using streaming software on the CI).  A white paper is in the works to describe this and other parts of the CI architecture.  Devialet were politely encouraged to include as much technical info as possible in the white paper!

4) Are there any technical reasons why the beta and latest versions of the firmware can influence sound quality? Have any changes to the beta and latest versions of the firmware been specifically intended to improve sound quality performance?

A: In general there are no planned SQ changes due to firmware upgrades.  An exception was beta 12 to beta 14 where improvements to high-res streaming were made, affecting AIR in particular.

5) With respect to the master companion link, are there any plans for to implement an alternative link method?  For example, Dante or Ravenna protocol, or are any other options like Ethernet being considered?  (To mitigate issues such as XLR cable length).

A: As I understand it: no. Dante is being considered but for use as an input in pro installations, not as a master/slave link. By the way, Devialet now recommend using RCA-RCA (rather than hybrid) link cable.

6) Are there any plans to increase playback resolution (or is the Pro-CI or Phantom physically capable of):
• Present - PCM to 24-bit/192 kHz and DoP / DSD64
• Future - PCM to 32bit/768kHz and DoP to DSD512, Native DSD to DSD512?
• Or anything above 192/DSD64?

A: [Not sure I captured everything relevant here...] USB offers the highest resolution as it has the highest raw bandwidth.  No immediate plans to increase supported resolutions.  (Although, there were some rash promises based on whether France win the World Cup...)

7) What is the input impedance of the MM phono input? Has this been changed since Stereophile measured 14K on the D-Premier?

A: It was 16.7 kΩ on the D-Premier (reported as 14 kΩ by Stereophile) but has always been 47 kΩ on all Expert models.

8) Is it technically possible to increase the power output of the 250Pro?  Similarly, is there any scope for power increases for the 220, 440 & 1000 Pro models?

A: If I got this right: no more power can be got from existing units.  This is due to limits on how much heat can be dissipated through the casework, except on 130/140 where the current delivery of the class D amp is the limiting factor

Legacy Expert Models:

9) What is the future for the “non-Pro” Expert models?  What happened to the twice yearly firmware updates that were meant to make the EVO platform unique in its ability to constantly evolve and remove obsolescence? The computational power of the Expert range in use was specified as only 20% utilized from the fw10. This means that there is room for software improvements also in the old range.  If not been abandoned completely, what can “legacy Expert” owners expect in the future?

A: To get benefits of evolution one needs to upgrade to Expert Pro CI - that is, keep up to date.  Expert and Pro without CI are still supported but will not evolve.

10) Will the upgrade program restart? If so, when?

A: Expected to be later this year (“summer”), as noted elsewhere.

Phantom questions:

11) Is it possible to have a switch in Spark that selects "normal", "zero latency" or "time-coincident" for Phantom?

A: There is a Direct Optical Mode with very low latency, but no control over volume as the operating software is bypassed - the Phantom just plays what it gets in optical input.

Joachim showed me the following procedure to engage this mode:
1: launch Phantom app (not Spark)
2: restart Phantom (3 clicks)
3: pair Phantom with app
4: on app, tap ten times between “mute” and “night” icons
5: select Optical Direct mode
6: select channel (L/R/mix)
7: select max. output level 0dB/-12dB

[Disclaimer: since I'm not familiar with Phantom I can't guarantee this is exactly correct - please take care, and contact Devialet if in any doubt.]

12) Any plans to include Phantoms in the RoonReady program after the Experts are certified?

A: Maybe, but not for at least 12-18 months

Communication:

13) Is the infamous pledge to make a better communication area on the website for engaging with customers still a reality? The Infinity Core log seemed to fade, with limited Devialet posting, and nothing for the latest final release software. Can they reconsider engaging with Devialetchat?

A: Devialet are actively considering how to improve engagement with customers.  This event was part of the re-engagement process.  They are very aware of Devialet Chat; it may feature in their plans, or they may do something independent.
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#62
(12-Jul-2018, 20:25)Hifi_swlon Wrote: Was it good?! Smile

Yes, I thought it was excellent.  Great to get a chance to talk to Joachim and Mathieu, and it gave me a much more positive feeling about what Devialet are doing these days.  They outlined what's in the pipeline for the rest of this year (at least) and I think are being more realistic about what they plan to deliver and when.  I got the impression that the hyperbolic marketing might be out of favour and realism is seen as a good thing.  More to come...
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#63
Thank you so much for your efforts! Hope you had fun at the event.
Oppo-203 / SonicTransporter i7 Roon Core ->Trinnov Altitute-16->TAD M2500MK-1 -> TAD CR-1
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#64
Excellent, thorough report- thanks very much! I don't understand most of the technical stuff but it appears that Devialet are not unaware of the higher-level demands (or interests) of many other users. I think it is really neat that OAC and Devialet both put effort, time and money into these events. I wish we had this kind of opportunity out here.

A point to Ian, and beer on me when I get England on the travel agenda.
Damon
Powernode, NAD M32, Cambridge CD transport, Analysis Plus, Nordost, iFi Nova, CSS Criton 1TDX, KEF C62
Vancouver, Canada
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#65
(12-Jul-2018, 20:47)thumb5 Wrote:
(12-Jul-2018, 20:25)Hifi_swlon Wrote: Was it good?! Smile

Yes, I thought it was excellent.  Great to get a chance to talk to Joachim and Matthieu, and it gave me a much more positive feeling about what Devialet are doing these days.  They outlined what's in the pipeline for the rest of this year (at least) and I think are being more realistic about what they plan to deliver and when.  I got the impression that the hyperbolic marketing might be out of favour and realism is seen as a good thing.  More to come...

Nice one. Thanks for the write up.

Generally seems positive but A9 was incredibly disappointing (if not predicable based on the lack of anything happening past couple of years). The promise sold with the Experts (non pro) was one of evolving and eradicating obsolescence through the EVO platform. This is now only partly true - the products only evolve up to the point they decide to make radical hardware upgrades - at which point the earlier models seemingly stagnate. A very different vision to the one sold with the units, and if I’m honest I believe was completely planned obsolescence - the factory video has Quentin Sannié specifically sating the move to CI was to save them developing for two different architectures. That’s pretty naughty.

Now I can understand the need to update the computer part as technology and demands evolve, but they should have designed it (or a version of) that could work in the non pro. so users of older models had cheaper options on this ‘forced’ payment to avoid obsolescence they shouldn’t have had. Or even an outboard box.

Doesn’t affect me as I went pro but I feel bad for existing expert owners. Sure their amps still work but for how long? A topic for another time.

Many of the other answers were interesting.

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

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#66
Now for some more general notes and subjective opinions about the event.

First, thanks to the folks at Oxford Audio for arranging and hosting the event, and to Alexandre, Joachim and Mathieu of Devialet for presenting and taking questions from the assembled masses (about 15 people, I guess).  It was good to meet a healthy number of DC members face-to-face, as always, as well as other folks not of this parish.

The main focus of the event was what the Core Infinity board brings to the Expert series, and what's in the pipeline for the rest of this year (and beyond).  Joachim first explained that Devialet have learned from the last year or so not to over-promise and under-deliver, so the first point is that they're trying to be more realistic about the uncertainty over schedules for software development.  This means no firm, publicised timescales for the work in progress.  The second point is that the Core Infinity is now the main focus of development for the Expert (Pro) series, and is seen as a "future-proof" processor platform.  The innovations will come in the form of software developed for the CI.

Mathieu explained some hardware details of the CI board: it's based on an i.MX6 quad-core ARM [Cortex-A9 I believe] processor with 4 GB RAM - this is the same SoC as in the Dialog.  It runs their own lightweight build of Linux, which enables sophisticated software applications including streaming.  Linux was chosen partly because it's a widely-used OS and is well-known by talented software developers.  Mathieu pointed out that the hardware deisgn of the CI board benefits from the success of the Phantom, because the higher sales volume of Phantom gives Devialet better access to technology from companies such as Qualcomm.

Turning to the changes in audio architecture: AIR now runs on the CI under Linux, with other streaming software, and there is an improved clocking architecture for the legacy (non-network) inputs; this improves sound quality of those inputs.  All inputs are capable of at least 24-bit/192 kHz operation.  (At this point there was a question about Phantom: it's unlikely that it would benefit from any improvement to its input capabilities as the performance is limited by the tweeter.  [I hope I interpreted that correctly.])

Joachim then described what's in Devialet's pipeline for software development.  They have been careful to prioritise the software development, and described these "works in progress" in priority order.

Top priority is support for Roon RAAT.  This has been under way since May, and should be released around the end of this year.  This is seen as a must-have, high-end feature for "audiophile" use.

By contrast, the next priority is support for audio playback over Bluetooth.  The use case here is a friend or visitor wanting to play music direct through your Devialet without any "set-up" overhead - in other words, more of a convenience feature.

Third on the list comes support for over-the-air firmware upgrade and an on-board configurator.  In other words, no need to use the SD card in either case, though the SD card will continue to be supported as it fits some other use cases (such as not having an internet connection).  Again, no firm timescale for those.

After that, Devialet hope to refresh the iOS application to make it comparable to the hardware remote control.

That seemed to be more or less the prepared part of the event, which then turned into more of a Q-and-A session.

Mathieu talked a bit about their design goals, which can be summarised as: minimum distortion and (hence) highest transparency.  He said (and I think he's said before) that they primarily measure rather than listen during the design stage: there's a strong belief in the power of engineering to produce an amplifier that sounds good.  Asked about why they're still using the same DAC as in the original D-Premier, Mathieu said that the measured performance of the Expert series at full power is still better than many DAC chips at line level - they are "years ahead of the field in audio D-to-A conversion technology".  He said he was proud of the fact that some people say that they get better sound by using an external DAC, because that simply means that the Devialet is transparent enough to preserve the "character" of the external DAC (as @f1eng has often said here).

Back on the Phantom, Joachim said Devialet feel they've reached the best they can achieve with respect to sound quality but they still want to improve the software, particularly to make it more usable.

More generally on the topic of customer engagement: Devialet are re-thinking their communication strategy.  They see Expert as their flagship product, and realise that it hasn't had the focus that it should have done over the last year or two.  They are discussing internally how best to engage with Expert and Phantom customers - this might be through their own forum.  They are very aware of Devialet Chat and keep up with what's being discussed here.

Devialet's new CEO is bringing more focus and prioritising more clearly how they use their resources.

Room correction was discussed briefly.  Mathieu explained that it needs specialised skills which Devialet don't have and don't plan to acquire.  That said, they are happy to implement custom EQ on a per-customer basis (I believe he mentioned boost/cut at up to 8 frequencies which I guess means specifically parametric EQ rather than an arbitrary convolution).

At that point the group discussion broke up and there was a chance to listen to a couple of Devialet-based systems: an O d'A with Wilson Sasha 2s, or a (new dual-mono) 210 through Magico A3's.

From my point of view, this event demonstrated that Devialet are keen to get back in touch with their customers and to adopt a more down-to-earth approach about what they can deliver.  Joachim implicitly admitted that their marketing had got a bit ahead of itself, and (for example) they've now tried to make the web site more focused on reality than hype.

I came away enthused about the potential of the Core Infinity board, and think I'm about ready to take the plunge.  Mind you, if @NickB has his way I should just chop in my 440 Pro for a 1000 Pro while I'm at it...
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#67
(12-Jul-2018, 21:02)Damon Wrote: Excellent, thorough report- thanks very much! I don't understand most of the technical stuff but it appears that Devialet are not unaware of the higher-level demands (or interests) of many other users. I think it is really neat that OAC and Devialet both put effort, time and money into these events. I wish we had this kind of opportunity out here.

A point to Ian, and beer on me when I get England on the travel agenda.

Thanks Damon.  Do let me know when you're in England!
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#68
(12-Jul-2018, 21:41)thumb5 Wrote: At that point the group discussion broke up and there was a chance to listen to a couple of Devialet-based systems: an O d'A with Wilson Sasha 2s, or a (new dual-mono) 210 through Magico A3's.

Shame about room Correction - nothing we didn’t expect but I think convolution is a well enough understood technique now it wouldn’t be too hard for a decent audio/maths programmer to implement. Same for roon-style PEQ. Kind of makes you wonder why they put all that unused DSP power on the CI board if they aren’t implementing what would be one of the most useful features to take advantage of it. Still, I’ll probsbly take them up on a custom EQ.

How did the setups sound?

>>> 1st Place Award: Devialet, last decades most disappointing technology purchase.  <<<

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#69
(12-Jul-2018, 22:22)Hifi_swlon Wrote: Shame about room Correction - nothing we didn’t expect but I think convolution is a well enough understood technique now it wouldn’t be too hard for a decent audio/maths programmer to implement. Still, I’ll probsbly take them up on a custom EQ.

Agreed.  I did ask specifically about convolution with Home Audio Fidelity's service in mind, but if I understood Matthieu's answer correctly that wasn't something they are able to support.  I do think it's an opportunity missed; in some ways having the facility to run a user-provided convolution would (you'd think) be less effort than messing about with custom PEQ, at least once the mechanism/framework was in place.

(12-Jul-2018, 22:22)Hifi_swlon Wrote: How did the setups sound?

I didn't sit down and listen very carefully, to be honest, but while the Od'A/Sasha system definitely sounded more impressive, I found the 210/A3 system more enjoyable - it sounded very clean and balanced.  Also different rooms and music, of course, so nothing to take very seriously.
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#70
First to say much respect to Ian (@thumb5) for a great write up.  I can confirm that he had a hard copy of the questions, he was taking notes, and any questions not answered in the original talk were pursued diligently.  A fine effort, I wish some of the guys in my team at work were as diligent with their paid duties!

Ian has covered the key points accurately, but there are a few things I can add.  

Regarding point 3, Mathieu was clear and stated that technically all inputs are equal.  That is, they are equal from a "signal path" point of view.  What is different is the protocols used, so AIR might sound better than AirPlay due to AIR having a superior protocol.  In the same way, USB is asynchronous whereas the other inputs are synchronous, neither is best, but the best results may be dependant on what you connect to the said input.

Regarding point 6, it was mentioned that the Pro is already capable of running above 24/192 via USB.  This certainly surprised me!  Ian was taking notes when this was mentioned, but from memory, I think Mathieu mentioned that the USB input is currently capable of accepting a 32bit feed.  I may have got this wrong, I need Ian's notes!.  In the general talk at the start of the event, Mathieu mentioned that it was technically possible for MAT to run quad rate DSD (AKA DSD256).  There are no plans to actually develop this on the current roadmap.  (See Ian's comments re France winning the World Cup)

Regarding point 8, it was mentioned that this point is now explained on Devilaet's website.  They mentioned that this is one of their most frequently asked questions, so they are now making an effort to get the "frequently asked" stuff answered properly on their website.  This relates to something Ian mentioned above, it does appear that there is a desire now to return the website to having decent technical information, rather than the marketing hyperbole.

Regarding point 9, they were clear, there will be no more development for old Expert.  The reason given for this is that they cannot provide unlimited resources so any time available for development will be "via Core Intelligence".  After this was explained, it was mentioned that the Pro upgrade scheme was being restarted "in the summer" - Ian mentioned this above, but I think the implication is that to be able to benefit from development you need to be prepared to upgrade to the current model.

Regarding point 13, I have to say I am feeling very positive about this point.  For me, there was a very different feel to today's event.  I have been to similar events before, Mathieu has always been an absolute pleasure to talk to, and of course is a huge source of technical information.  But that is only part of the story, in the past, I have often had this feeling that there were things that were not said, that anyone from Devialet was being very guarded with what they were saying and revealing.  As an example, discussions regarding issues with AIR were typically shut down with nothing of substance said.  Not today.  Everything thing seemed very open and honest, both Mathieu and Joachim appeared to be talking completely openly and freely, they actually came across as audio enthusiasts having a fun day with their like-minded customers.  As an example, when discussing the additional technical information being added to the Devialet website, they made a joke about their own marketing.  Mathieu even made a mention of Devialet Chat, saying that he liked to read it during his lunch break to catch up on what is being said and if there are any issues, he even made a comment that he found it very hard to read on some occasions in the past during times when things were not going so well.  Clearly this matters to him.  I am quite sure that none of this would have been mentioned one year ago, to me things do genuinely seem to be different now, in a very good way.

One point for @Dvlt PhD - In OAC's picture on Twitter, they did indeed have the Magico A3's partnered with the 1000Pro.  (and the dCS upsampler)  However, by the time of the event the Magico's were running with the new 210 Pro dual mono and Devialet AIR, so about a £20K system, with the amplification somewhat cheaper than the speakers.  Unfortunately, I did not have much time for a decent listen.  NickB spent a long time listening to this set-up, plus he runs the Magico's big brothers with his own Devialet, so he is probably best placed to comment.  (although Nick was making positive comments on the system during my brief spell in the room)

Another point that came up was regarding the Pro's DAC.  The question was asked why the DAC chip in the Pro had not been updated to something better.  The answer to this was very interesting.  Mathieu was very clear in stating that this is the best chip to use, they continue to use it because of the measured performance within ADH, stating that this chip with the ADH implementation offers the absolute optimum signal to noise ratio and so on.  Mathieu's view was that the Pro's digital to analogue conversion is absolutely state of the art in today's market, and use of this chip is retained for performance.  There have been some comments on this forum mentioning that it is not the DAC chip that is important, but the architecture around it, Mathieu himself made this point, but the interesting thing is that the chip is deliberately retained because it performs best.  

I am not sure if I have forgotten anything of note, if I think of anything over the coming days I will chime in again.

I will sign off by offering a heartfelt thank you to the guys from Devialet for supporting such a positive event, and to all at OAC for yet again being top class hosts.  A particular mention has to go to OAC's Dan for keeping me supplied with coffee.  A top class event!
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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