Devialet at Oxford Audio 13th July

[Dr Tone]

So when I see people going ape over a convenience feature (aka AIR) that doesn’t work as smoothly as it should I think these people don’t have a clue what a real problem is.  Not having AIR work is not loosing sound quality.  Not having AIR work is not having your system dead in the water.  Not having AIR work is not loosing your investment.  Not having AIR work is an inconvenience and that my friends is all!

I'm sorry to rise to the bait again (I should know better), but how on earth can you presume to judge what capabilities are important to other people?  It may be just a convenience feature for you, but for others it may have been a primary reason for buying the amplifier.  And for some, AIR not working may indeed render their system "dead in the water".

Well said, @thumb5!

[Confused]

I'm a bit fed up with silly forum tit for tats, so I resisted rising to the bate.  (just!)

[thumb5]

You should have some more reputation just for sheer will power, quite frankly...

[Damon]

Crikey, there are lot of angels here on very high horses. And it is disappointing to see the way the tone has degraded in this thread. OAC must be a bit fed up at the decline and deviations.

We generally agree that Devialet has an erratic record of posting release dates, and then failing to meet those targets, especially in regard to the recent hardware upgrade. But that only matters is one feels the need to constantly play with their gear. Devialet released firmware upgrades from 7.1.1 to 9.0 quite rapidly, and brought functional and (apparently) sound quality improvements. For free. GuillaumeB posted today that he now has the 1000 watt upgrade. No fuss, and no announcement, and yet, the inevitable complaints.

Air is a problem for some users, but not all. The extensive posts by Confused #25, and IanG-UK, #71 I think, had excellent information in them- including comments that indicate Devialet understands AIR has flaws and that they do, in fact, read this forum. And yet the name-calling continues. Threats of, 'I'll never upgrade, or give them another penny, or I'm selling' persist. Complaints abound whether they make an announcement or remain silent. Frankly, with the abuse they get here, I'm not at all surprised they don't bother to participate.

Of course, Alan Shaw would simply kick you off his forum for talking about him or his products the way some do about Devialet here. That must be the other end of customer care. Naim gets a bit antsy when forum members start giving too much praise to other brands. And even though they participate on their forum (which they own) they can't get streaming to work across their product range. Their connections and dropouts cover everything from internet radio to 24/192. And their firmware upgrades sometimes create heavy black bricks that don't function at all. Heck, even my Sonos can't find it's own ass sometimes.

So what if they extended the original DPrem. upgrade window. You may think you've been mislead, but that is a remarkably personal way to react to a business decision that frankly, has been a benefit to others. If you have a DPrem, then the value of your old amp has been propped up. Anyone who bought a D Prem. and upgraded it did so of their own volition. I would say you are fortunate to have a product that was upgradeable then, and is upgradeable now. Almost any other product would be two generations old by now. All Expert series amps remain current with the upgrade options, and if they continue to offer the upgrade, then I'm thrilled.

As RebelMan points out, they are a young company, and making mistakes that many relatively young and small companies make. With products on sale for about five years, they qualify as young. I hope they catch up on some of these points as it would add a great deal to the profile of the company, and certainly it would engender much more customer loyalty.

Would I like them to be part of the forum? Yes, absolutely. Do I think it would be a good strategic move to get their communications and marketing and engineering and production departments in one room and get organized? You bet. But don't give them a hard time for their language and communications while clamouring to have users sign a petition that can't even get the title grammatically correct.

One mention of a possible new development and some folks start yapping like dogs when they hear the food bag opening. And then they come here and bash the company when the release schedule is not met, or when it appears that they are not going to give every individual owner their own customized unit. 'I want ROON', 'I want UPnP', 'I want MQA'; the list of demands never ends. Again, no surprise that they read the forum but just can't get themselves to jump in.

Respect and decency go both ways.

On topic, it still seems to me that we have learned a lot from the OAC day and the very helpful information that members posted. That, combined with the response from Quentin Sannie´which Antoine posted in the petition thread will, I hope, bring some patience and confidence back to this forum.

[PhilP]

Another excellent post Damon - I agree with pretty much every point that you make. I'm embarrassed to say that I've started to type similar posts several times but not followed through. I'm certainly happier with Devialet than any other hifi manufacturer I've tried.

[Antoine]

OK - I do not want to get involved with any forum arguments.  However, one thing strikes me about some of the recent posts, in particular Antoine's comments regarding the time limits announced for previous upgrades.  At the Oxford Audio event last week, were told that the D800 upgrade program would run (or was it would 'probably' run?) from September to December.  OK, taking this at face value, it is a case of the upgrade program only running for a limited period, due maybe to commercial reasons, or practical supply reasons, or whatever.  Being cynical, it could be taken as simply one of the oldest salesman lines in the book, 'buy now while stocks last', which prays on the psychology of the buyer, replacing dithering, caution, thinking time etc. with a rapid decision to buy.

Perhaps in our new era of clear and open communication with Devialet, this will soon be clarified?

I was actually promised by my dealer that the upgrade window would not be closed by the end of the year. Instead he promised me that it will still be open under at least 2017. Maybe this is just another rumor that adds to the general confusion, but he runs one of the leading hifi stores in Europe and have been dealing with Devialet since the days of D-Premier. He also adviced me not to make any rushed decisions and wait for the launch of the finished product. It really does sound like he knows something we don't and that we will all be very surprised and happy with the end result after this grueling wait...

Thanks for sharing this Mightymart! It sounds like the right thing to do for Devialet IMO and I hope it's true so we customers can decide to do the upgrade (or not) based on a product that's actually ready and available on the market, including the Devialet OS board. Ready at least in its basis, of course the software side will no doubt be continously developed further.

[RebelMan]

So when I see people going ape over a convenience feature (aka AIR) that doesn’t work as smoothly as it should I think these people don’t have a clue what a real problem is.  Not having AIR work is not loosing sound quality.  Not having AIR work is not having your system dead in the water.  Not having AIR work is not loosing your investment.  Not having AIR work is an inconvenience and that my friends is all!

I'm sorry to rise to the bait again (I should know better), but how on earth can you presume to judge what capabilities are important to other people?  It may be just a convenience feature for you, but for others it may have been a primary reason for buying the amplifier.  And for some, AIR not working may indeed render their system "dead in the water".

You raise a good point.  Let's take a look back.  When the Premier debuted it did't have AIR, it didn't even have the means to communicate wirelessly either.  Although the designers had "plans" to include the feature from the get go corporate deadlines didn't allow for it.  Eventually the add-on board was released but not until the hardware and software were ready to go (so they thought) and if you recall that took awhile.  (It's often the case that smaller companies will subcontract out services for economic and/or expertise reasons so delays are often the result of outside influences and beyond their (Devialet's) control.)   But that didn't stop Devialet from selling Premiers.  And even if the buyer's purchase was dependent on them having AIR that didn't stop them from using the equipment until they could use AIR.  Much of the backlash comes from these people!

Fast forward to today when AIR is not only an integral part of the amplifier its become somewhat mainstream.  If AIR does not work for them are they dead in the water?  Absolutely not!    The AIR infrastructure requires compatible and working ancillaries to execute properly.  If your cheap (comparatively speaking) WiFi router took a dump are you prevented from listening to your Devialet?  No you are not, not technically anyway.  But if you want to be stubborn about it then why not keep it to yourself?  It's widely known that Windows systems generally do not play cooperatively with AV setups yet will people try to make them work and sometimes with success but many times not.  As and engineer I have access to a variety of systems but I would never use Windows with my AV setup at home.  Yes, I know what you're thinking, that Devialet said that it would work with Windows.  Well that's true they did and they really wanted it too and they hoped that it would but sometimes goals are a bit too lofty and you may not have clairvoyance into that until the deed is done.  Some companies won't even offer  Windows equivalent software for their products just MacOS.  At least Devialet is trying to give customers the option.  Until then learn to make do with what does work or not, but don't show up in every thread raining on everyone else's parade.

[Damon]

...I'm embarrassed to say that I've started to type similar posts several times but not followed through. ...

PhilP,
You are very kind, as always. And I'll thank you again, publicly, for the time you took to help me in my pre-purchase days. This particular missive took me about three days to write; I'm sure I've written it 10 ways. Now I'm probably a bit late to the party, so to speak. No doubt my billable hours will take a hit too.

I appreciate that many owners have invested a great deal of money in their systems, and the Devialet promise (dare I say it?) and the potential has come with some stumbles. I realize also that I am fortunate, in retrospect, that my dealer was quite up front about the difficulties that some persons were having with AIR, even 18 months ago. So, I bought in content to have CD quality streaming. I'm also the the head of the 'simple system' club. I don't fuss with my gear, and I don't agitate about power cords, or power conditioners or NAS's or even firmware. As a result I don't make the same demands as, I think, most others here do of their systems. No surprise then that I don't have any problems. Heck, I can't even see my amp from most places in my house, so it really is 'out of sight and out of mind'. Except that I still revel in the sound it makes.

I'm very glad Devialet are aware of the problems and have not denied that problems exist. I think that Devialet is on the cusp of a significant step forward in their hardware and software. As such, I see the time frame for new software and hardware extending into 2017 as reasonable, and I think that others actually feel the same way. I still see streaming as relatively new technology and I think that it will be much different in another two or three years. As much as I dislike the volume and tone of many complaining posts in this thread and some others, I am very pleased that we had such good informative posts about what the Devialet staff said. I just wish the whole situation had been more.... graceful.

By the way, I'd like to suggest that we all owe a nod of thanks to OAC for their event. More real news (and more grief) have come out of their event, with Devialet representatives, than I ever expected. I hope they don't regret doing it! Just another reason to put Oxford on the travel agenda.

[Celts88]

Two people buy a car, and both find the windscreen wipers don't work (everything else about the car is great!!!)

Person no. 1 lives in a country where it never rains, not really bothered about the windscreen wipers not working
Person no. 2 lives in a country where it rains all the time, is REALLY bothered about the windscreen wipers not working

Both of these people are correct for their own circumstances.

Not trying to start a barney or anything, just saying that from each others perspective they are correct, but if they don't fully understand each others needs (or circumstances) then it's easy for each to feel the others person's opinion is incorrect.

Damon

I don't live in the UK, but from previous correspondence with OAC (Jon & Ben) they were first class and definitely a place I would highly recommend (and that's only from a few emails, and could tell instantly they would be a go to place to deal with)

[Confused]

I really think this forum tit for tat has to end! To be honest, I think a lot of it stems from people not taking the time to understand other people point of view. I think Rebel Man is probably fed up with reading lots of negativity regarding the minor issue of AIR. There are others who have probably invested vast amounts of time trying to get AIR stable, and free time for many of us is valuable. If you haven't been there it is probably hard to understand the frustration, but why not take a few minutes to try to think this through? I didn't agree with everything Damon posted, but I thought it was a good post, and I did agree with a lot of it. However I do not feel the need to pick up on every little point made that does not exactly align with my world view. I respect his opinion. Plus I am pretty sure that my views have already been adequately expressed on the issues I care about.

A bit of respect, and a simple understanding that we all have slightly different perspective goes a long way.

It worries me that this thread was started only four months ago.....

http://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=2845

To quote 'There is also a mysterious quality to the forum, which is a credit to both the admins and members, in that by the standards of hifi forums this is a remarkably civil place to visit. (I am sure I'm not the only one who has witnessed some similar forums periodically descend into the virtual equivalent of total war)'

I think we are loosing this now....

I did also once have a very strange and unlikely experience. It was quite a while ago, I was trying to get some information of a forum, some people were helpful, but one guy seamed hell bent on putting down what I was saying. I didn't agree with him, but he did put up some cleaver arguments. This descended in a fairly pointless tit for tat, it didn't get excessively nasty but it certainly got in the way of what I was trying to do, for sure it was not a pleasant experience. (For the record, this is pre my Devialet days, I am not referring to any fellow 'Chatter's here....) Anyway, after this I was queueing to get into the Bristol show. It was the usually busy Saturday and I was keen to talk to one manufacturer that was attending. My strategy was to get in, the manufacturer was on one of the upper floors, so I was going to head straight up and get in the appropriate room while they were still quiet. (You know where this is going I'm guessing....) Anyway, after 10 minutes in the queue, I got to the room. There was some bloke in there chatting away to the manufacturers rep, asking questions. I wondered around looking at the kit in the room, but was listening in to what was an interesting conversation. Anyway, the guy started stating a few opinions to the rep, and it dawned on me, 'it's you! the bloke on the 'net, the annoying troll man!' It was the same bit of kit we discussed on line, and he was coming out with the same lines. Anyway, he finished his conversation and I couldn't help but see if really was him. 'Are you Colin?' I asked him. Well it was him. The funny thing was, we then started chatting about all sorts of stuff and actually got on really well. Two blokes interested in music, with a desire for high quality reproduction, you know the kind of thing. I guess that's the point. There is something about forums that if someone posts something that is a slightly different view to yours, there is such a desire to come back and make your own point. They way I look at it though, is if I look at my work mates, my neighbours, friends, family, almost universally they have no comprehension of why I would want to spend so much time, effort and cash on a stereo. 99% of the world, about 5.9 billion people think I am bonkers and will never understand. Relative to the 5.9 billion, we are all friends and kindred sprits here. I think we would all be better off if we remember this.

Oh by the way, I don't think you have ever had the wisdom to buy a Devialet Colin, but if you are reading this, I still think you're a ####!