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How to get the best Phono Signal?
#31
(07-Sep-2019, 16:56)watchnerd Wrote:
(16-Jan-2018, 01:18)Greg Wrote: ‘Here’s an update. My 220 Pro is now also C/I upgraded.

I tried using just the SUT’s inline and passive and I got no reduction in hiss. 

Given that SUTs often offer >20dB of gain, this seems very puzzling and almost electrically impossible for there to be no reduction in hiss given the gain, if configured optimally.

How did you configure the input on the Devialet into which you plugged the SUT?


The SUT (step up transformer) is a passive device which provides a voltage step up at the primary to secondary winding ratio of the transformer. Therefore the transformer does not add any electrical noise.

Put simply the low voltage high current in the primary winding is traded for a higher voltage and lower current in the secondary. Under these conditions it follows that the secondary of the transformer must be loaded by a high impedance.

When using a step up transformer into the Devialet the phono stage is set up with a high impedance load and lower gain as for a moving magnet cartridge at 47K ohms. The hiss is much reduced as the gain of the phono stage is much lower when set as a moving magnet input.

This is how I use the phono stage in my Devialet. I use a Koetsu Black Goldline MC cartridge into Lundahl LL1933 step up transformers at a ratio of 1:8. The hiss is inaudible at the listening position.


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VortexBox running LMS & Linux Roon Core, Devialet 440 pro CI, Logitech Transporter, Palmer 2.5 Turntable, Koetsu Black Goldline, DIY Salas Phono Pre and Harbeth SHL5 Plus
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#32
(08-Sep-2019, 11:18)disarmamant Wrote:
(07-Sep-2019, 16:56)watchnerd Wrote:
(16-Jan-2018, 01:18)Greg Wrote: ‘Here’s an update. My 220 Pro is now also C/I upgraded.

I tried using just the SUT’s inline and passive and I got no reduction in hiss. 

Given that SUTs often offer >20dB of gain, this seems very puzzling and almost electrically impossible for there to be no reduction in hiss given the gain, if configured optimally.

How did you configure the input on the Devialet into which you plugged the SUT?


When using a step up transformer into the Devialet the phono stage is set up with a high impedance load and lower gain as for a moving magnet cartridge at 47K ohms. The hiss is much reduced as the gain of the phono stage is much lower when set as a moving magnet input.

This is how I use the phono stage in my Devialet. I use a Koetsu Black Goldline MC cartridge into Lundahl LL1933 step up transformers at a ratio of 1:8. The hiss is inaudible at the listening position.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks, I've also been using a SUT (Hashimoto HM-7 and/or Lundahl 1931), so very familiar with how they work.

The reduction in hiss you described makes sense, but Greg said he had no reduction in hiss with a SUT, which is puzzling.
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#33
Perhaps Greg has the phono gain set too high at MC levels while using a SUT?

I have mine set to 5mV using a 1:8 step up with the Koetsu.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
VortexBox running LMS & Linux Roon Core, Devialet 440 pro CI, Logitech Transporter, Palmer 2.5 Turntable, Koetsu Black Goldline, DIY Salas Phono Pre and Harbeth SHL5 Plus
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#34
My ortofon verto , and ortofon cadenza Black , give noo hiss , verto is connectet too MM settings and noooo hiss
Devialet 220pro ,dynaudio C1 signature ,speaker cable ,and other cable audio note , turntable Audio note tt2,caridge ortofon cadenza Black, MC trafo ortofon verto , blueray player primare BD 32 mrk 2, innuos Zen mrk 3 music server,streamer,and ripper.                     Cool Copenhagen Denmark
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#35
(08-Sep-2019, 15:02)disarmamant Wrote: Perhaps Greg has the phono gain set too high at MC levels while using a SUT?

I have mine set to 5mV using a 1:8 step up with the Koetsu.
To be honest, I can’t remember what settings I had at the time I tried steppers. It was a while ago. In any case, I don’t like steppers because they are not linear in performance and consequently can alter the sound across the frequency range. Mathieu Pernot (Devialet Design engineer) advised me that the phonostage was built with the very best components and even with very low output mc cartridges, there should not be any hiss. I believe he was the principle designer of the phonostage and actually he is rather proud of it. I have listened to 120Pro, 220Pro, 250Pro and 1000Pro, all C/I. All the phono stages hissed albeit, with it’s split signal, the 1000 was much quieter overall. I have discussed this issue with other owners in person, some who are respected members here and they all tell me they can hear hiss from the phono stages of their amps and those they sample elsewhere such as at dealerships. Mathieu’s view is if there is hiss, the amp is faulty and requests USB recordings are made and forwarded to him for analysis at [email protected]devialet.com  To date, being a bit of a Luddite, I’ve not as yet sent mine because I need to understand how to do it, but I have a friend who helps me with this sort of thing and it will be sent eventually. I saw Mathieu a couple of months ago at Oxford Audio Consultants and after challenging him on this issue, he remains convinced that it is all to do with configuration settings and showed me how to use the remote to change settings on the fly (I already knew and have tried this with failure).

Currently, my solution is to use a Longdog Audio (LDA) MCJ3 phonostage which is a hybrid jfet amp with a valve output stage. http://www.longdogaudio.com/project/mcj3...o-stage/en Plumbed into my D250 Pro C/I at Laine stage, there is no hiss unless you put your ear next to a speaker driver. Absolutely silent from the listening position. As this phonostage is particularly fine in its performance, none of Devialet’s own stage speed and dynamics are lost. I believe the LDA is a little better on fine sound detail such as micro sounds and nuances. Some of my friends are now raving about the sound of my Phono system and to be honest, since I fitted the LDA MCJ3 into my system, I’ve more or less ignored streamed music because the vinyl is so much better.

I know what I have said will likely be challenged by many members who don’t believe my take on all this. So beit. Being a subjective thing, all people may hear noise (musical) differently. What I do know (for me) is that my latest analogue set up (see my sig) is the very best I have ever had and I’m at the moment content to simply live with and enjoy it. For me, even considering high resolution streaming, it can’t hold a flame at all to quality vinyl replay, and there, having sampled multi-thousand pound systems at dealers and in private ownership, what I have I believe is better. Phew, I rest my case.
Roon (lifetime) using qobuz, sonicTransporter, Synology NAS. Denon DP-80 in bespoke CLD plinth, Audiomods Micrometer Series 6 (carbon fibre) arm with continuous silver wiring loom, Hana ML moving coil cartridge, Longdog Audio MCJ3 Phono stage. Both into Devialet 250 Pro C/I. World Audio Design (DIY) KLS3 MkIII speakers with upgraded crossover and SEAS T25CF002 Millennium tweeters. Ethernet streaming. Interconnects are home made with IPL Acoustics IC2 cable. Speaker cable is Blue Jeans (Belden 5000) 10 gauge 5T00UP.
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#36
(08-Sep-2019, 15:02)disarmamant Wrote: Perhaps Greg has the phono gain set too high at MC levels while using a SUT?

I have mine set to 5mV using a 1:8 step up with the Koetsu.
To be honest, I can’t remember what settings I had at the time I tried steppers. It was a while ago. In any case, I don’t like steppers because they are not linear in performance and consequently can alter the sound across the frequency range. Mathieu Pernot (Devialet Design engineer) advised me that the phonostage was built with the very best components and even with very low output mc cartridges, there should not be any hiss. I believe he was the principle designer of the phonostage and actually he is rather proud of it. I have listened to 120Pro, 220Pro, 250Pro and 1000Pro, all C/I. All the phono stages hissed albeit, with it’s split signal, the 1000 was much quieter overall. I have discussed this issue with other owners in person, some who are respected members here and they all tell me they can hear hiss from the phono stages of their amps and those they sample elsewhere such as at dealerships. Mathieu’s view is if there is hiss, the amp is faulty and requests USB recordings are made and forwarded to him for analysis at [email protected]devialet.com  To date, being a bit of a Luddite, I’ve not as yet sent mine because I need to understand how to do it, but I have a friend who helps me with this sort of thing and it will be sent eventually. I saw Mathieu a couple of months ago at Oxford Audio Consultants and after challenging him on this issue, he remains convinced that it is all to do with configuration settings and showed me how to use the remote to change settings on the fly (I already knew and have tried this with failure).

Currently, my solution is to use a Longdog Audio (LDA) MCJ3 phonostage which is a hybrid jfet amp with a valve output stage. http://www.longdogaudio.com/project/mcj3...o-stage/en with a valve stage and plumbed into my D250 Pro C/I, there is no hiss unless you put your ear next to a speaker driver. Absolutely silent from the listening position. As this phonostage is particularly fine in its performance, none of Devialet’s own stage speed and dynamics are lost. I believe the LDA is a little better on fine sound detail such as micro sounds and nuances. Some of my friends are now raving about the sound of my Phono system and to be honest, since I fitted the LDA MCJ3 into my system, I’ve more or less ignored streamed music because the vinyl is so much better.

I know what I have said will likely be challenged by many members who don’t believe my take on all this. So beit. Being a subjective thing, all people may hear noise (musical) differently. What I do know (for me) is that my latest analogue set up (see my sig) is the very best I have ever had and I’m at the moment content to simply live with and enjoy it. For me, even considering high resolution streaming, it can’t hold a flame at all to quality vinyl replay, and there, I rest my case.
Roon (lifetime) using qobuz, sonicTransporter, Synology NAS. Denon DP-80 in bespoke CLD plinth, Audiomods Micrometer Series 6 (carbon fibre) arm with continuous silver wiring loom, Hana ML moving coil cartridge, Longdog Audio MCJ3 Phono stage. Both into Devialet 250 Pro C/I. World Audio Design (DIY) KLS3 MkIII speakers with upgraded crossover and SEAS T25CF002 Millennium tweeters. Ethernet streaming. Interconnects are home made with IPL Acoustics IC2 cable. Speaker cable is Blue Jeans (Belden 5000) 10 gauge 5T00UP.
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