Impressed by firmware 7.1.3

[tacobellbiker]

I decided to give 7.1.3 a go after reading about it on this forum. I wanted to briefly share my thoughts. But most of all my thanks, because I wouldn't have known about or been able to acquire this firmware without this forum.

For reference, my setup is a 120 previously running 10.1.0 and Sonus Faber Venere 3.0 speakers in a studio apartment measuring roughly 23' x 21' x 8'. There are GIK Soffit bass traps at the four corners. Cables are Shunyata Venom and Audioquest Vodka. I use Ethernet and AIR 3.0.4. Source is a PC running Foobar (WASAPI). 

I use SAM at 25%. (One weird thing I've noticed about SAM is that it makes a big difference even at 0%.) 

The change I noticed right away was the disappearance of the tweeters. Previously, I always felt like I could hear the tweeters playing separately from the mid-range driver. With 7.1.3, the overall sound becomes cohesive, and the drivers blend into one another. The imaging is 3D, holographic, floating in a space seemingly outside of the dimensions of my room.

Other words I would use to describe 7.1.3. are natural, organic, warm, lush, liquid, and colored. It's colored, not neutral, but I like that.

If there is a trade off, I think there is less bass than before, and it is not as well controlled. The Venere 3.0 speakers have kind of flabby, lazy bass to begin with, so the new firmware does exacerbate that. 

But bass was never my priority. I'm a midrange and 3D vocal imaging guy, and I'm blown away by this older firmware. 

I'm glad I stumbled on this forum a few days ago. This tweak has put a big grin on my face, and it cost zero dollars.

[ogs]

Sounds very much like how I experienced 7.1.3 @tacobellbiker . I also liked it very much! Gave players a special 'in the room' feeling. Seems like a good match for your system and taste. In the end I found 10.1.0 better for my setup, but I still remember 7.1.3 fondly Welcome to the forum!

re.: SAM. phase correction is constant. What you regulate is (amplitude) extension.

[Confused]

One point regarding SAM is that there are two versions, with the "SAM 2" appearing at firmware 8.X.X and above. There is a subtlety here, if your SAM profile is designated as "V8", it will only work with Firmware 8.0.0 and above. For SAM profiles not designated as V8, SAM works slightly differently with Firmware 6.X.X and 7.X.X than it does with firmware 8.0.0 and above. With my speakers this could be summarised as a bit more bass boost with SAM 1 versus more refined bass and extension with SAM 2, but this might be very different for other speakers and SAM profiles.

Mindful, of the above, I note that the Sonus Faber Venere 3.0 does not have a SAM profile, I presume you are using the SAM profile for the Venere 2.5? This should work fine if the bass drivers are the same and there is no difference in the cabinet / crossover etc. I do not know the subtitles of the Sonus Faber Venere range, so I am not sure if this is an issue.

It looks like it is working well for you, which is the main thing, and if the bass drivers are the same between the 2.5 and 3.0 then there should be no risk of damage. That said, it is possible to get any speaker SAM'd if you happen to be lucky enough to be near one of Devialet's very rare SAM Lab events one day. Maybe you could make a request for a SAM profile from Devialet, the Venere 3.0 is a current model.

[Greg]

It looks like it is working well for you, which is the main thing, and if the bass drivers are the same between the 2.5 and 3.0 then there should be no risk of damage.  That said, it is possible to get any speaker SAM'd if you happen to be lucky enough to be near one of Devialet's very rare SAM Lab events one day.  Maybe you could make a request for a SAM profile from Devialet, the Venere 3.0 is a current model.

Indeed. I want to get my own speakers Sam’d, as, because they are DIY World Audio Design KLS3 Mk2’s, they obviously don’t redily reveal as a target for inclusion into any conventional database. Devialet has been pretty quiete recently, but I remain hopeful that one day, a Devialet engineer will visit Oxford Audio and my speakers can be properly analysed. 

If you are in the U.K., the place to go (main agent) is Oxford Audio Consultants. Contact here is obviiusly through 
Alasdair.

[tacobellbiker]

re.: SAM. phase correction is constant. What you regulate is (amplitude) extension.

Ah that explains what I am hearing. By extension, do you that higher SAM % goes to a lower hertz value?

One point regarding SAM is that there are two versions, with the "SAM 2" appearing at firmware 8.X.X and above.  There is a subtlety here, if your SAM profile is designated as "V8", it will only work with Firmware 8.0.0 and above.  For SAM profiles not designated as V8, SAM works slightly differently with Firmware 6.X.X and 7.X.X than it does with firmware 8.0.0 and above.  With my speakers this could be summarised as a bit more bass boost with SAM 1 versus more refined bass and extension with SAM 2, but this might be very different for other speakers and SAM profiles.

Mindful, of the above, I note that the Sonus Faber Venere 3.0 does not have a SAM profile, I presume you are using the SAM profile for the Venere 2.5?  This should work fine if the bass drivers are the same and there is no difference in the cabinet / crossover etc.  I do not know the subtitles of the Sonus Faber Venere range, so I am not sure if this is an issue.

It looks like it is working well for you, which is the main thing, and if the bass drivers are the same between the 2.5 and 3.0 then there should be no risk of damage.  That said, it is possible to get any speaker SAM'd if you happen to be lucky enough to be near one of Devialet's very rare SAM Lab events one day.  Maybe you could make a request for a SAM profile from Devialet, the Venere 3.0 is a current model.

Thanks for that detailed reply, Confused. You did actually confuse me   . Venere 3.0 does have a SAM profile: https://www.devialet.com/en-us/expert-pr...enere-3.0/


How can I tell if it is designated as V8 or not?

[David A]

re.: SAM. phase correction is constant. What you regulate is (amplitude) extension.

Ah that explains what I am hearing. By extension, do you that higher SAM % goes to a lower hertz value?

Yes, no, maybe. Depends on how you look at it.

If you raise amplitude in the bass, you raise it across a range of frequencies. The less audible frequencies, lower ones where the speaker is rolling off, get raised as well as already audible frequencies and the higher of those less audible frequencies will become more audible.

BUT raising the amplitude of low frequencies also affects audibility because of the nature of our hearing response which rolls of more in the low and high frequencies as sound pressure level (amplitude) decreases.

You'll notice lower Hz frequencies as you increase the level in SAM but part of that is due to SAM and part of it is due to our own hearing response at low frequencies. I have no idea which is playing the bigger part but I suspect it may be our hearing response.

I suspect the phase correction also plays a part in the audibility of low frequencies. For example, a bass or electric bass has a bottom note of about 41 Hz but the first overtone at 82 hz can actually be as loud or louder than the overtone and will definitely be more audible. I wonder whether the phase correction results in the fundamental and overtone being reproduced in closer phase with each other which would mean that the overtone will gain some reinforcement and I have a feeling that some of our sense of loudness of low frequency notes is provided by the loudness of the overtone given that our hearing is less sensitive at the fundamental frequency.

I think there's a lot going on and, pardon the pun, some of it is in our mind, in other words some of the difference we hear is due to psychoacoustics and the way our hearing works.

[tacobellbiker]

Yes, no, maybe. Depends on how you look at it.

If you raise amplitude in the bass, you raise it across a range of frequencies. The less audible frequencies, lower ones where the speaker is rolling off, get raised as well as already audible frequencies and the higher of those less audible frequencies will become more audible.

BUT raising the amplitude of low frequencies also affects audibility because of the nature of our hearing response which rolls of more in the low and high frequencies as sound pressure level (amplitude) decreases.

You'll notice lower Hz frequencies as you increase the level in SAM but part of that is due to SAM and part of it is due to our own hearing response at low frequencies. I have no idea which is playing the bigger part but I suspect it may be our hearing response.

I suspect the phase correction also plays a part in the audibility of low frequencies. For example, a bass or electric bass has a bottom note of about 41 Hz but the first overtone at 82 hz can actually be as loud or louder than the overtone and will definitely be more audible. I wonder whether the phase correction results in the fundamental and overtone being reproduced in closer phase with each other which would mean that the overtone will gain some reinforcement and I have a feeling that some of our sense of loudness of low frequency notes is provided by the loudness of the overtone given that our hearing is less sensitive at the fundamental frequency.

I think there's a lot going on and, pardon the pun, some of it is in our mind, in other words some of the difference we hear is due to psychoacoustics and the way our hearing works.

Thanks, that clarifies it.

[Confused]

re.: SAM. phase correction is constant. What you regulate is (amplitude) extension.

Ah that explains what I am hearing. By extension, do you that higher SAM % goes to a lower hertz value?

One point regarding SAM is that there are two versions, with the "SAM 2" appearing at firmware 8.X.X and above.  There is a subtlety here, if your SAM profile is designated as "V8", it will only work with Firmware 8.0.0 and above.  For SAM profiles not designated as V8, SAM works slightly differently with Firmware 6.X.X and 7.X.X than it does with firmware 8.0.0 and above.  With my speakers this could be summarised as a bit more bass boost with SAM 1 versus more refined bass and extension with SAM 2, but this might be very different for other speakers and SAM profiles.

Mindful, of the above, I note that the Sonus Faber Venere 3.0 does not have a SAM profile, I presume you are using the SAM profile for the Venere 2.5?  This should work fine if the bass drivers are the same and there is no difference in the cabinet / crossover etc.  I do not know the subtitles of the Sonus Faber Venere range, so I am not sure if this is an issue.

It looks like it is working well for you, which is the main thing, and if the bass drivers are the same between the 2.5 and 3.0 then there should be no risk of damage.  That said, it is possible to get any speaker SAM'd if you happen to be lucky enough to be near one of Devialet's very rare SAM Lab events one day.  Maybe you could make a request for a SAM profile from Devialet, the Venere 3.0 is a current model.

Thanks for that detailed reply, Confused. You did actually confuse me   . Venere 3.0 does have a SAM profile: https://www.devialet.com/en-us/expert-pr...enere-3.0/


How can I tell if it is designated as V8 or not?

As for the confusion, this is my mistake.  I performed a very quick check of the Sonus Faber speaker selection in the Devialet Configurator and noted that the Venere 3.0 was not there, what I did not notice was that there were two pages listed, there are a lot of Sonus Faber speakers with SAM profiles. Clicking on "next", getting page 2 of the SAM list, and the Venere 3.0 is there.  So sorry for the confusion, it is an embarrassingly silly and obvious mistake once you've spotted it.

OK - Now the confusion is resolved, the Venere 3.0 does not have the orange V8 designation in the list, so this is an original SAM V1 profile.  Profiles such as this work from FW 6.0.0, and if you use it with firmware 8.0.0 and above the profiles have been changed to work with the later SAM 2.  So you can use your profile with 7.1.3 or later firmware, it will work fine, but you will get slightly different results above and below firmware 8.0.0.  This seems to tie up with what you are hearing, so it is one of those happy moments when what you think you are hearing does actually match the technical reality.  

In the screen grab below you can see the V8 logos, the Venere 3.0 does not have one.

   

[ogs]

re.: SAM. phase correction is constant. What you regulate is (amplitude) extension.

Ah that explains what I am hearing. By extension, do you that higher SAM % goes to a lower hertz value?

Yes. SAM at 100% is max extension and as much low bass your speakers can reproduce. the SAM % you choose is a balance of the speaker/room interaction and of course your own preferences.

[tacobellbiker]

@Confused and @ogs Thanks for your replies, I think I understand SAM better now.