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Lost with DOS2 migration
#21
(01-Dec-2019, 12:05)daibaron Wrote: At this time is it very difficult to know what Airplay 2 is capable of.
The last information i gathered on a Sonos forum is Airplay 2 is 16-24 bit/44.1/48Khz .
https://en.community.sonos.com/music-ser...ts-6812098


While this is true, ive never considered sonos’s products to be high fidelity to being with, all their airplay 2 speakers (maybe outside of 2nd gen play 5) has their own assortment of issues, play 1 lacking in bass and beam struggling to be a good full range speaker. Since devialet has the hardware to backup pushing it to 24/192 I see them doing it, especially since the phantom already supports it over upnp
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#22
(30-Nov-2019, 22:37)Oodle Wrote: Once the airplay 2 update comes out (which they said was aimed for early next year) it can support 192/24
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I just pointed out an information found on the Sonos forum.
Sonos tech is definitely not a concern for us.
I'm not even sure playing Flac over Airplay 2 (since IOS11) can change the limitation/restriction.
I'm still curious to hear what is the result after re-encoding Hi-res Flac to Alac or Airplay 2 compatible source.
Googling about Airplay 2 specs lead me nowhere.
Please excuse my poor reputation
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#23
Interesting question regarding the re-encoding. My guess is though there won’t be any noticeable difference when streamed over AirPlay which delivers basically CD quality for audio. So the downsampling should be limited by the 16/44.1KHz quality. I have not tested it though. I am also not sure where the rumor comes from that AirPlay 2 delivers higher quality audio. I was also interested in this question, but the info I gathered was that there was no change in the Bitdepth/Sample rate specifications. As AirPlay 2 is already implemented with other manufacturers I guess we would have heard about a performance increase. Regarding ALAC transport protocol there should also be no difference to FLAC as it is just a container. So my bottomline would be to limit Streamingservices to 16/44.1 when using AirPlay as there should be no alterations and it would consume less bandwidth.

This is what I figured out so far. I am no engineer however, so if I quoted something wrong or needs further explanation please feel free to correct me.

Innuos Zen Mini MK3 -> (Ethernet / Audioquest Optical) -> Dialog & 2x White Phantom
Pro-Ject Carbon Debut Esprit Turntable with Ortofon Red -> (Cinch/RCA) Musical Fidelity Merlin -> (AudioQuest Optical) to Phantom
Master & Dynamics MH40, Audeze Sine, AudioQuest Dragonfly Red; Remote Control via macOS and iOS devices (Devialet App / Innuos Sense /iPeng / Audirvāna Studio)
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#24
(03-Dec-2019, 19:06)seb Wrote: Interesting question regarding the re-encoding. My guess is though there won’t be any noticeable difference when streamed over AirPlay which delivers basically CD quality for audio. So the downsampling should be limited by the 16/44.1KHz quality. I have not tested it though. I am also not sure where the rumor comes from that AirPlay 2 delivers higher quality audio. I was also interested in this question, but the info I gathered was that there was no change in the Bitdepth/Sample rate specifications. As AirPlay 2 is already implemented with other manufacturers I guess we would have heard about a performance increase. Regarding ALAC transport protocol there should also be no difference to FLAC as it is just a container. So my bottomline would be to limit Streamingservices to 16/44.1 when using AirPlay as there should be no alterations and it would consume less bandwidth.

This is what I figured out so far. I am no engineer however, so if I quoted something wrong or needs further explanation please feel free to correct me.

Hi seb, I am by no means an expert on AirPlay (I know a bit more about ALAC as I worked on it a while back) but based on the little I do know I think things are getting a little bit confused here.  

AirPlay and ALAC are different things.  AirPlay is a family of protocols designed to send (display, stream, mirror) media from an iOS device or iTunes to a compatible output device (audio and/or video renderer).  Audio can be streamed via Airplay using a variety of codecs like ALAC, AAC & PCM.  ALAC is capable of encoding up to 8 channels of 32/384 audio, so no problem there.  The AirPlay protocol defines things like service discovery, stream setup, simple control (start, stop, timing sync, error correction etc.) and advanced control (volume, metadata, album art etc.).  AirPlay isn't a codec and doesn't define or constrain the resolution of the audio, it just defines the method by which the stream can announce what it contains and the device can advertise what capabilities it has (formats, resolution, remote volume, display etc.)

So within the scope of what the codecs can support the audio resolution limitations of an AirPlay system are defined by the transmitting device and the receiving/rendering device.  The 16/44.1 limitation was not so much a limitation of Airplay 1 per se, but an implementation decision in the iPhones, iPads, AirportExpresses and AppleTVs that supported it.  This might have been based on the capabilities of the devices themselves, or an implementation decision by Apple to provide "highest common denominator" compatibility or to mitigate throughput or reliability problems streaming over wireless networks.  I have no idea.  But whichever it was I am pretty sure it is not a limitation of AirPlay itself.

Very happy to be put straight if anybody here has better info.
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#25
I mean assuming that the phantom can already decode 24/192 I doubt we’ll see the same limitation


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#26
(04-Dec-2019, 06:57)Oodle Wrote: I mean assuming that the phantom can already decode 24/192 I doubt we’ll see the same limitation


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Well I did the following test.  Using Audirvana on a Mac I played a 24/192 FLAC track (Come Away with Me, Norah Jones) from my hard disk to my Phantoms using two different streaming protocols:  
  • When I select the Phantoms as the output device under "Network" in Audirvana (in other words streaming via UPnP over ethernet) Audirvana reports that it is indeed streaming at 24/192.
  • However if I select my Phantoms as the output device using AirPlay via the "sound" widget on the Mac, and then select them under "DAC" (which basically means output devices available locally in the machine on which Audirvana is running) Audirvana reports that it is streaming at 24/44.1.  This, despite the fact that in "Audio MIDI setup", the utility that manages sound output on the Mac, the Airplay attached Phantoms are listed as only supporting 16/44.1, a setting which unlike other local output devices cannot be changed by the user.
We know the Phantoms can accept 24/192, we know that the codec (in this case LPCM) supports 24/192 so either the restriction is being placed by the AirPlay transmitter, i.e. Audio Midi setup on the Mac, or the AirPlay receiver, i.e. the Phantoms are advertising themselves as only being 24/44.1-capable.  

So I repeated the test, this time streaming via AirPlay to my AppleTV 4K.  Since both the AppleTV 4K and my Mac (Catalina) are AirPlay 2-compatible this should be streaming over AirPlay 2.  The result is the same, in Audio MIDI Setup the AirPlay Output device is shown as only supporting 16/44.1, but again Audirvana claims it is streaming at 24/44.1.  In other words it would appear that wherever this restriction is, it is not confined to the Phantoms and it is independent of AirPlay version.

So just for fun I repeated the test again, this time streaming the same album at 24/192 from Qobuz on my iPhone (iOS 13.2.3) via AirPlay 2 to the AppleTV 4K.  The track played without any problems, although of course it is impossible to know what bit depth/sample rate is actually being presented to the DAC in the AppleTV!

Go figure.
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#27
Thanks for the follow up.
Audio Nirvana is an amazing music player/manager, Music Bee on PC is amazing too and free but doesn't work with Airplay unless you buy a plugin.
Such results were expected since trans coding on the fly is a prerequisite to use the protocol and carry valid datas the decoder.
If the hardware is not the limit, the Airplay 2 protocol is definitely one.
Please excuse my poor reputation
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#28
(04-Dec-2019, 15:10)daibaron Wrote: Thanks for the follow up.
Audio Nirvana is an amazing music player/manager, Music Bee on PC is amazing too and free but doesn't work with Airplay unless you buy a plugin.
Such results were expected since trans coding on the fly is a prerequisite to use the protocol and carry valid datas the decoder.
If the hardware is not the limit, the Airplay 2 protocol is definitely one.

Yes, I think the point I am making is that the 16/44.1 limitation is not inherent in any of the underlying technology here.  Various people seem to have been assuming that it is, and consequently assuming that the limitation will disappear when the technology changes (for instance when moving from AirPlay 1 to AirPlay 2).  What my tests above suggest is that this restriction is arbitrary, deliberate and almost certainly an implementation decision on Apple's part.  It will only change if and when they decide to change it, so I would caution against assumptions made on the basis of a high level understanding of what is going on here.
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#29
You're point was quite clear to me no need to rephrase it.
The "protocol" was designed by Apple and is a strict, no assumption were made.
can't wait for Airplay X HD on Windows.
Please excuse my poor reputation
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#30
(04-Dec-2019, 13:01)struts Wrote:
(04-Dec-2019, 06:57)Oodle Wrote: I mean assuming that the phantom can already decode 24/192 I doubt we’ll see the same limitation


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Well I did the following test.  Using Audirvana on a Mac I played a 24/192 FLAC track (Come Away with Me, Norah Jones) from my hard disk to my Phantoms using two different streaming protocols:  
  • When I select the Phantoms as the output device under "Network" in Audirvana (in other words streaming via UPnP over ethernet) Audirvana reports that it is indeed streaming at 24/192.
  • However if I select my Phantoms as the output device using AirPlay via the "sound" widget on the Mac, and then select them under "DAC" (which basically means output devices available locally in the machine on which Audirvana is running) Audirvana reports that it is streaming at 24/44.1.  This, despite the fact that in "Audio MIDI setup", the utility that manages sound output on the Mac, the Airplay attached Phantoms are listed as only supporting 16/44.1, a setting which unlike other local output devices cannot be changed by the user.
We know the Phantoms can accept 24/192, we know that the codec (in this case LPCM) supports 24/192 so either the restriction is being placed by the AirPlay transmitter, i.e. Audio Midi setup on the Mac, or the AirPlay receiver, i.e. the Phantoms are advertising themselves as only being 24/44.1-capable.  

So I repeated the test, this time streaming via AirPlay to my AppleTV 4K.  Since both the AppleTV 4K and my Mac (Catalina) are AirPlay 2-compatible this should be streaming over AirPlay 2.  The result is the same, in Audio MIDI Setup the AirPlay Output device is shown as only supporting 16/44.1, but again Audirvana claims it is streaming at 24/44.1.  In other words it would appear that wherever this restriction is, it is not confined to the Phantoms and it is independent of AirPlay version.

So just for fun I repeated the test again, this time streaming the same album at 24/192 from Qobuz on my iPhone (iOS 13.2.3) via AirPlay 2 to the AppleTV 4K.  The track played without any problems, although of course it is impossible to know what bit depth/sample rate is actually being presented to the DAC in the AppleTV!

Go figure.


Hmm interesting, maybe airplay has limitations based on # of channels since it does support up to 8 channels at 32/384, maybe to get jogger sample rates and bit depth you have to be hitting it with 6 channels or more. I’m gonna try asking Apple if it’s even possible for devialet to get around this. The idea of the mac not being able to output 24/192 over airplay is silly since it’s a WiFi based protocol, so theres no “transmitter” so to speak. As for the Apple TV test I doubt Apple would go through the effort to have hifi grade decoding on a product in which no one would hear the difference, maybe I’m wrong but that’s my 2 cents


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