Next Software Updates for Expert Amplifiers

[Mohmm]

Recently I installed the Roon trial and liked it quite a lot. The biggest problem was that Roon didn't find material for many of my preferred music styles and that the Roon control point on my iPad often loses connection to the main app. Otherwise, my setup:

Roon (using the iTunes library on my iMac) > Dirac Audio Processor (for room correction) > AIR > dedicated ethernet (fixed IP) > Dev 800

works perfectly. Above all, the iMac is dead silent. The very few times I noticed a problem with AIR was when some process on the Mac engaged in network activity simultaneously with AIR on a shared/switched ethernet connection. Ever since I use a dedicated fixed IP ethernet connection to the D I didn't notice any problem with AIR.

[DelaneyB]

"Recently I installed the Roon trial and liked it quite a lot. The biggest problem was that Roon didn't find material for many of my preferred music styles and that the Roon control point on my iPad often loses connection to the main app"

Sounds like two good reasons NOT to like Roon?

[Hifi_swlon]

Recently I installed the Roon trial and liked it quite a lot. The biggest problem was that Roon didn't find material for many of my preferred music styles.....

Mohmm, can you expand a bit? How were you using it to find material, and what were you hoping for it to do?

It's really a meta data rich player and library manager for your own library, although it does have excellent Tidal integration too, as well as nice ways to explore new music.

I've not heard too many iPad dropout issues, but the way it reconnects after standby could be nicer and I know they're working on that. The Roon forums are fantastic too if you have issues.

[Hifi_swlon]

I see that the UPnP/DLNA or if we're lucky OpenHome support is way more important at this moment than any commercial software specific protocol. But that is just me of course The reason I think so is simply that it is an industry standard and you can find (free) control point software on almost any imaginable platform already. So you could have a streaming system that is usable with anyone owning a smart device as opposed to a streaming service available for those that have a Windows PC or a Mac and choose to leave their computers running 24/7 and pay $119 a year for this luxury.

Also from what I hear, Roon will (soon?) support streaming to Linn streamers, which would mean OpenHome support, which is an extension to DLNA/UPnP. So it would work with Devialet with UPnP-support directly or with a very trivial change.

Anyway, UPnP/DLNA/OpenHome support would make Devialet the one box solution I always hoped it would be. I don't know about the storage space on the Devialet, but basically I could incorporate all the features of Dialog inside Devialet expert range. Now that would be something.

I think RAAT is more in line with what Devialet wanted AIR to be - which is to say built with SQ as a priority, but different in that it's also robust, and able to deal with multi-room and all sample rates, and run on all OSs. Also, it's designed by people with a lot of practical experience making it stable in normal environments - with the designer previously creating similar ecosystem for Meridian/Sooloos.

Granted, right now Roon costs as reasonable amount to use (although personally I think the lifetime is a bargain), but I do think it's at the level Devialet themselves should have aimed for.

Upnp is old and wasn't really a very good design. Openhome - I know less about it but I hear it's better, but still has issues. I don't think anyone's arguing that RAAT isn't one of the best things out there right now. Actually, I hope they make it publicly available for use outside Roon, so that it becomes the defacto transport.

I'm a Roon user so of course I'm biased. But I still think it's the truth.

Unless Devialet create a new version of AIR that's stable for everyone on all platforms and at all sample rates, I couldn't really care less about it anymore. No one that understands their own technology leaves something out in the field in the state AIRs in. Not for that amount of time.  I think they made a mistake with its implementation, and just couldn't fess up - although in another post here they seem to have been quoted saying they based it on 'an unreliable protocol'. My hunch is they're struggling to create something better hence the delay. These things aren't easy, but if you can't do it right, it's best to know when to give up and get something else in. Or at least offer something else as well. Small companies of a couple of people seem to be able to implement something like RAAT In a matter of weeks or a month.

I think upnp as a sole solution would be a huge disappointment, although it would work for a lot of people I think it would be a step backwards technologically.

I'm not interested in Dialogue compatibility either. It seems like a badly designed piece of equipment, hindered by bad software, and means another box attached to the Devialet. There are plenty of better solutions out there already if you want to go that route, and many people have done so due to AIR issues. I do hear Dialogues are good for supplementing your central heating system though, but not sure how efficient it is....

I hope they surprise me and release a new AIR that works for everyone. I'll be ecstatic and people will get what they're owed. I just don't see it. (Sorry).

[thumb5]

...
I think they made a mistake with its implementation, and just couldn't fess up - although in another post here they seem to have been quoted saying they based it on 'an unreliable protocol'.

AIR is based on UDP which is "unreliable" in the sense that it does not guarantee delivery.  But no-one chooses to use UDP without knowing that and making a conscious decision about it.  So it's simply disingenuous of Devialet to suggest that "an unreliable protocol" has anything to do with the unreliability of AIR.

I'm not interested in Dialogue compatibility either. It seems like a badly designed piece of equipment, hindered by bad software, and means another box attached to the Devialet.

...all of which make it completely unacceptable to me as a "solution" to the problems with AIR, as Devialet have proposed in the past.

I hope they surprise me and release a new AIR that works for everyone. I'll be ecstatic and people will get what they're owed. I just don't see it. (Sorry).

+1

[wikeeboy]

I must say, i'm not holding my breath for Munich and the next firmware. I'm guessing that the big deal will be Dialog working with the expert range & no Roon.

What i am interested in though, is if there will be any type of hardware upgrade coming. Possibly trickle down from D900? If that was the case though, i wonder how Devialet would deal with people who just recently bought a D800. You'd be pretty unhappy if you stumped up the cash for the D800 then had to pay a significant sum to bring it up to date with an upgrade.

[GuillaumeB]

...
I think they made a mistake with its implementation, and just couldn't fess up - although in another post here they seem to have been quoted saying they based it on 'an unreliable protocol'.

AIR is based on UDP which is "unreliable" in the sense that it does not guarantee delivery.  But no-one chooses to use UDP without knowing that and making a conscious decision about it.  So it's simply disingenuous of Devialet to suggest that "an unreliable protocol" has anything to do with the unreliability of AIR.

I'm not interested in Dialogue compatibility either. It seems like a badly designed piece of equipment, hindered by bad software, and means another box attached to the Devialet.

...all of which make it completely unacceptable to me as a "solution" to the problems with AIR, as Devialet have proposed in the past.

I hope they surprise me and release a new AIR that works for everyone. I'll be ecstatic and people will get what they're owed. I just don't see it. (Sorry).

+1

So first Devialet tell us that UPNP is not fit for purpose, yet Linn (and no doubt plenty of others) have implemented this with no dropouts or white noise and with reasonable sound quality. And now we find out that Devialet have based AIR on UDP, "an unreliable protocol"?! Hmm... 

I agree that attaching a Dialog to the Expert is a completely unacceptable solution, and I believe I have always said so.

I think Devialet need to completely rethink the whole streaming/CP area for the Expert range, particularly in light of all the recent innovations coming to the market (including Roon of course). I've suggested the Ravenna networking protocol before, which is essentially AIR on steroids and was built for studio applications. But this would requite a substantial investment in resources and it's just possible that Devialet have more pressing priorities, with Spark for instance.   

Guillaume

[deviousalet]

I have no interest in defending Devialet's software incompetence, but one shouldn't blame UDP for their problems unless it is their problem understanding how to use UDP. The reliability of delivering each networking packet isn't the same as the reliability of the networked product. In the same way that we can't review the sound of a DAC based solely on the chips used, we can't conclude much about a streamer based on the network protocols used. Devialet has done a lovely job using Ti DAC chips and they could have done a great job using UDP, but they didn't. Don't worry, they got way more wrong than their UDP implementation. Look at their packet broadcasting, overhead they add to the network,WiFi software and even hardware (hiding antennas behind metal is idiotic), etc. Maybe the big upgrade to AIR in the Expert line will be to copy the Phantom and use Ethernet, PowerLine, and WiFi to brute-force their way around their inefficient and ineffective network implementation. They'd be wiser to hire some better software talent though. They clearly lack that talent now, and that isn't the fault of UDP.

[Xander]

I am wondering what the setup is from all with issues with Air... I have made a separate streaming network for audio and it works perfect.... Cable modem wired to Airport Extreme (turn all wireless signals from cable modem off, make a 2.4 and 5 ghz network) + a separate Airport express extending the Airport network and have this little box next to the Devialet...

Maybe I'm just lucky, hopefully I can help you to get Air working...

-streaming from MacBook Air with Tidal or iTunes-

[AllenB]

So first Devialet tell us that UPNP is not fit for purpose, yet Linn (and no doubt plenty of others) have implemented this with no dropouts or white noise and with reasonable sound quality. And now we find out that Devialet have based AIR on UDP, "an unreliable protocol"?! Hmm... 

I agree that attaching a Dialog to the Expert is a completely unacceptable solution, and I believe I have always said so.

I think Devialet need to completely rethink the whole streaming/CP area for the Expert range, particularly in light of all the recent innovations coming to the market (including Roon of course). I've suggested the Ravenna networking protocol before, which is essentially AIR on steroids and was built for studio applications. But this would requite a substantial investment in resources and it's just possible that Devialet have more pressing priorities, with Spark for instance.   

Guillaume

Which is why Roon RAAT could be such an easy save, especially if AIR is still riddled with problems. Roon have made it very easy to incorporate their protocol into firmware, there are a whole plethora of slim devices coming out and some of the purpose designed manufacturers have, or want to adopt it. Goodness sake, even Naim could adopt this protocol if they wanted to (but that's another argument)!! It takes all the angst out of the software development department, and it will give you a music manager and GUI interface that Spark can only wish in a million years to better. Your money will be much better spent on Roon subs than a Dialog.

I just think Devialet arrogantly believe they know what they are doing with their software. Patently, even in the Phantom / Spark / Dialog department this does not seem to be the case. Apart from a few that you can probably count on one hand, AIR has never worked fuss-free and reliably. Time to let go Devialet.

To me the iOS remote is another case in point, if we are not going to get a hardware remote that completely reflects the Expert window, then a refresh of the app is sorely overdue, the software development here seems non-existent.