Next Software Updates for Expert Amplifiers

[Hifi_swlon]

I am wondering what the setup is from all with issues with Air...  I have made a separate streaming network for audio and it works perfect.... Cable modem wired to Airport Extreme (turn all wireless signals from cable modem off, make a 2.4 and 5 ghz network) + a separate Airport express extending the Airport network and have this little box next to the Devialet...

Maybe I'm just lucky, hopefully I can help you to get Air working...

-streaming from MacBook Air with Tidal or  iTunes-

Like you say, maybe you're just lucky

Seems there are many people just being lucky... statistically speaking I am not sure what lucky means then...
For my case, I just have set up my system with a lan cable between my Mac and my Time capsule and from my time capsule to my Devialet. Air works perfectly with iTunes or Qobuz app from my Mac. Qobuz even offers direct mode with Air. This is not possible with Roon. So, I think although Roon is a great software, it is not Devialets fault that exclusive mode is not working.

I'm sure there are plenty of people being lucky. There are also plenty being not so lucky. Statistically speaking I think you could call this a few things -without the exact numbers its hard to say what though beyond luck

It's great to hear these stories from people that have AIR running well (good for them), but why make out that just because thats the case for you, that everyone else's networks or setups are to blame! Believe it or not there are some pretty technically competent people suffering AIR issues across e.g. wired gigabit networks that are otherwise perfect in every other walk of life apart from AIR. If AIR can't run reliably on these networks, its not reliable. Who knows what testing Devialet did - for all I know they built it around a Time Capsule.

Not sure why the AIR/exclusive mode comment has been attributed to me or anything I've said - I use Roon via USB Since you mention it though, if you follow the Roon forums, they have said a few times that Devialet have given no assistance in resolving what the issue is with exclusive mode and AIR, and since they don't publish anything about the AIR protocol, there's a limited amount they can do to debug. Perhaps Devialet are more helpful to Qobuz since they integrate with the Dialogue and also are happy to fit into Spark, whereas Roon offer a (vastly superior IMO) solution to both Spark and AIR. AIR in exclusive mode never worked properly for me when I used Audirvana for example, and by properly you know what I mean….

[NickB]

Just so you don't think it is only on good networks that AIR works, I have it running on my usual NUC on the most appallingly bad mains networking set up in Spin at the moment. Not sure if you know but Spanish mains is not a ring main but a series of spurs that are connected to different trip switches in no sensible pattern whatsoever and mine is fairly standard here. I get speeds between 11Mb and 136Mb and varying all over the place on what are purported to be 600Mb mains connectors. AIR just keeps working the only time it fails is when the network collapses completely and then I can't even ping the router. I am convinced that there is a kind of magic between Win10 and AIR which just seems to work.

[Hifi_swlon]

Just so you don't think it is only on good networks that AIR works, I have it running on my usual NUC on the most appallingly bad mains networking set up in Spin at the moment. Not sure if you know but Spanish mains is not a ring main but a series of spurs that are connected to different trip switches in no sensible pattern whatsoever and mine is fairly standard here. I get speeds between 11Mb and 136Mb and varying all over the place on what are purported to be 600Mb mains connectors. AIR just keeps working the only time it fails is when the network collapses completely and then I can't even ping the router. I am convinced that there is a kind of magic between Win10 and AIR which just seems to work.

I'm not challenging that Devialet AIR works for some and in certain setups and certain OS's. But that isn't my definition of working. Far from it in fact, and as happy as I am for people who have a working AIR setup, I don't feel the need or inclination to build a new network in my house - based on trial and error but using other people's working setups as a guide - purely to accommodate a poorly designed/implemented solution from Devialet. Nothing else designed to plug into my home network requires me to build a new one to make it work properly….

I agree, it definitely seems like they've been (sorry to use the word again) 'lucky' with Win10.  I say that since from what I've read it seems like it's only the unofficial version (i.e. the one Devialet state isn't supported on Windows 10) that works, rather than anything they developed specifically for it.  In fact, please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've read here the Win10 specific version doesn't actually seem to work on Win10?  In any case it wouldn't surprise me if, come Munich, they take advantage of this coincidence and announce that they've done a 'complete overhaul' (aka nothing) for AIR on Windows10,  and that it's now the only supported operating system.  Unless of course they announce to their joy that you can now get round these 'crazy operating system bugs sweeping through the entire Mac and Windows repertoire' by hanging the cheap looking and seemingly dangerously hot plastic 'room heater' Dialogue thing off the back of your Le Expert…. How lovely and elegant that will look wall-mounted next to my Le 200.

All I can say from my POV is that of all the technology I've bought in the last 5-10 years, the Devialet is the least reliable and so has been the most disappointing - both in the hardware/software itself, as well as in the related customer service.  I honestly don't think the machine's are fit to be sold with AIR as a selling point.  I'm also absolutely amazed that they still openly bang on about AIR and how good it is, and list it on their website and promotional material without any disclaimers about it being flakey as hell and pot luck as to whether it will actually work on a Mac or any Windows OS other than 10 (unsupported) in an average household's network environment.  And an average household's network should be all that's needed.

Now I know there are some hardcore Devialet fans here (and if they own a Devialet that looks beautiful and works then I get it) and they'll be really troubled and upset - possibly even outraged - that someone's got the nerve to openly talk badly of the French creators of their 'beloved', and if thats you I apologise profusely for I do not wish to ruin your love affair- far from it I enjoy reading many of the forum members posts here . BUT, many of us have been burned - specifically by AIR - and I just don't accept the defences such as "it works for me so it works", or "it worked for 22 minutes NON STOP for me last month", or "just give them time, I'm sure they've got engineers working day and night to fix this and they'll get there", or "its your network - you just need to make yours the same as mine and use Win10", or whatever other defence people come up with.…..  

Every now and then I look at my D200 on the wall, and while I admire its beauty (I still think it looks stunning) nothing gets me past the disappointment I feel every time I think about why I bought it and how it was intended to be used vs the reality of my Devialet experience so far.

None of this is aimed at you NickB btw, I just replied to your one about the network because it was the latest post…. Funnily enough, Spanish mains sound like my house before we had it completely rewired when we renovated - apparently the man that lived there before us wired it himself from a library book. Needless to say it failed every safety test we threw at it, and when the electricians ripped out all the redundant wiring in the under-stairs cupboard, it turned out the whole house was wired into a single fuse. I wont even talk about the myriad of junction boxes and taped wires we found under the floors.

[jjo]

I disagree about the specifics of going open source personally, but purely because I don't want anything based on Upnp, and open home seems too new to tell how well it will be adopted - either way it just seems to be a lashing of something onto something else to reduce the development burden.

I have no idea why people dislike UPnP so much. I mean, so far the streamer I consider the best I've ever used, usability and functionality wise, is  Sonos. And Sonos is basically a UPnP-streamer with some extensions. Mostly those extensions something that has been addressed in OpenHome specs.

As for OpenHome, it is not that new. Linn developed it for it's own streamers and they've been around since 2007. I also don't know what counts as acceptable adoption, but at least Auralic streamers use OpenHome and so does Lumin. At least in some circles all of these brands are considered high end.

But I guess some can see implementing something ready and stable in order to concentrate doing new stuff as a bad thing

[Hifi_swlon]

I guess what I was getting at was Devialet didn't feel UPnP was up to task so they wrote something new and cutting edge (at the time).  I think they had the right idea, but sadly they failed miserably on the delivery aspect.

Purely form research, I feel like RAAT is the natural successor to AIR, rather than an upgraded UPnP based solution.  Quite a lot of high end brands have announced they are on board already, and its only been available a month.  Here's the latest list I saw announced, although I've heard that 'dozens' are still to come:

AURALiC, Audio Alchemy, Bel Canto, Bryston, Cary Audio, Constellation Audio, dCS, Exasound, IQ Audio, LH Labs, Lumin, PS Audio, Small Green Computer/Sonore, SoTM, and TotalDAC.

My guess is these high-end brands feel that it's good too, and first reports are that it's totally stable, and works with all formats including DSD (I don't think openhome can do this as one example?).  When I researched open home after you posted, I couldnt really find it mentioned anywhere….

Time will tell about the success of either I guess - if only we had both options in our experts right now so we could debate which ones we preferred using, rather than debating the unlikely event that either will be integrated

I agree its a shame RAAT is not open source - Roon should seriously consider it.

[Womaz]

Just so you don't think it is only on good networks that AIR works, I have it running on my usual NUC on the most appallingly bad mains networking set up in Spin at the moment. Not sure if you know but Spanish mains is not a ring main but a series of spurs that are connected to different trip switches in no sensible pattern whatsoever and mine is fairly standard here. I get speeds between 11Mb and 136Mb and varying all over the place on what are purported to be 600Mb mains connectors. AIR just keeps working the only time it fails is when the network collapses completely and then I can't even ping the router. I am convinced that there is a kind of magic between Win10 and AIR which just seems to work.

I'm not challenging that Devialet AIR works for some and in certain setups and certain OS's. But that isn't my definition of working. Far from it in fact, and as happy as I am for people who have a working AIR setup, I don't feel the need or inclination to build a new network in my house - based on trial and error but using other people's working setups as a guide - purely to accommodate a poorly designed/implemented solution from Devialet. Nothing else designed to plug into my home network requires me to build a new one to make it work properly….

I agree, it definitely seems like they've been (sorry to use the word again) 'lucky' with Win10.  I say that since from what I've read it seems like it's only the unofficial version (i.e. the one Devialet state isn't supported on Windows 10) that works, rather than anything they developed specifically for it.  In fact, please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've read here the Win10 specific version doesn't actually seem to work on Win10?  In any case it wouldn't surprise me if, come Munich, they take advantage of this coincidence and announce that they've done a 'complete overhaul' (aka nothing) for AIR on Windows10,  and that it's now the only supported operating system.  Unless of course they announce to their joy that you can now get round these 'crazy operating system bugs sweeping through the entire Mac and Windows repertoire' by hanging the cheap looking and seemingly dangerously hot plastic 'room heater' Dialogue thing off the back of your Le Expert…. How lovely and elegant that will look wall-mounted next to my Le 200.

All I can say from my POV is that of all the technology I've bought in the last 5-10 years, the Devialet is the least reliable and so has been the most disappointing - both in the hardware/software itself, as well as in the related customer service.  I honestly don't think the machine's are fit to be sold with AIR as a selling point.  I'm also absolutely amazed that they still openly bang on about AIR and how good it is, and list it on their website and promotional material without any disclaimers about it being flakey as hell and pot luck as to whether it will actually work on a Mac or any Windows OS other than 10 (unsupported) in an average household's network environment.  And an average household's network should be all that's needed.

Now I know there are some hardcore Devialet fans here (and if they own a Devialet that looks beautiful and works then I get it) and they'll be really troubled and upset - possibly even outraged - that someone's got the nerve to openly talk badly of the French creators of their 'beloved', and if thats you I apologise profusely for I do not wish to ruin your love affair- far from it I enjoy reading many of the forum members posts here . BUT, many of us have been burned - specifically by AIR - and I just don't accept the defences such as "it works for me so it works", or "it worked for 22 minutes NON STOP for me last month", or "just give them time, I'm sure they've got engineers working day and night to fix this and they'll get there", or "its your network - you just need to make yours the same as mine and use Win10", or whatever other defence people come up with.…..  

Every now and then I look at my D200 on the wall, and while I admire its beauty (I still think it looks stunning) nothing gets me past the disappointment I feel every time I think about why I bought it and how it was intended to be used vs the reality of my Devialet experience so far.

None of this is aimed at you NickB btw, I just replied to your one about the network because it was the latest post…. Funnily enough, Spanish mains sound like my house before we had it completely rewired when we renovated - apparently the man that lived there before us wired it himself from a library book. Needless to say it failed every safety test we threw at it, and when the electricians ripped out all the redundant wiring in the under-stairs cupboard, it turned out the whole house was wired into a single fuse. I wont even talk about the myriad of junction boxes and taped wires we found under the floors.

This is an excellent post and I agree with so much of it.

[GuillaumeB]

I agree its a shame RAAT is not open source - Roon should seriously consider it.

Ravenna (AES67) is open source:

http://www.ravenna-network.com/using-ravenna/overview

"RAVENNA is an open solution for transmitting audio over IP. Designed to meet the exacting standards of the Broadcast industry, RAVENNA delivers high-quality, multi-channel audio over a standard IT network."


Check out the specs it is very impressive and could be a solution for Devialet. 

I agree it would be nice if Devialet could offer Roon as an option but if they are against it for commercial reasons (which would appear to be the case) then they should seriously consider AES67.

Guillaume

[Hifi_swlon]

I agree its a shame RAAT is not open source - Roon should seriously consider it.

Ravenna (AES67) is open source:

http://www.ravenna-network.com/using-ravenna/overview

"RAVENNA is an open solution for transmitting audio over IP. Designed to meet the exacting standards of the Broadcast industry, RAVENNA delivers high-quality, multi-channel audio over a standard IT network."


Check out the specs it is very impressive and could be a solution for Devialet. 

I agree it would be nice if Devialet could offer Roon as an option but if they are against it for commercial reasons (which would appear to be the case) then they should seriously consider AES67.

Guillaume

That looks really interesting (I'd not heard of it), and since its used in a pro environment would most likely work pretty reliably

My question there would be, what applications would we use with it in our home ('audiophile' if you like) environments?

[GuillaumeB]

I agree its a shame RAAT is not open source - Roon should seriously consider it.

Ravenna (AES67) is open source:

http://www.ravenna-network.com/using-ravenna/overview

"RAVENNA is an open solution for transmitting audio over IP. Designed to meet the exacting standards of the Broadcast industry, RAVENNA delivers high-quality, multi-channel audio over a standard IT network."


Check out the specs it is very impressive and could be a solution for Devialet. 

I agree it would be nice if Devialet could offer Roon as an option but if they are against it for commercial reasons (which would appear to be the case) then they should seriously consider AES67.

Guillaume

That looks really interesting (I'd not heard of it), and since its used in a pro environment would most likely work pretty reliably

My question there would be, what applications would we use with it in our home ('audiophile' if you like) environments?

This is one of the most talked about DACs at the moment:

http://nadac.merging.com/nadac

I believe they have written something close to the AIR concept with a virtual sound card so you basically use whatever programme you want. 

Personally I would rather keep the PC/Mac completely out off the equation and favour a dedicated renderer/streamer approach which has been optimised for audio. As long as the control point is stable and works I am happy. No doubt all-in-one Roon boxes will be available soon, I know the Antipodes can already offer a complete solution so no need to have a computer running in the background but from what I understand there are still some issues with USB compatibility (it requires a new operating system to run on the Antipodes and as far as I know this isn't playing nicely with the Devialet, still a beta as far as I know).

Guillaume

[Hifi_swlon]

Ravenna (AES67) is open source:

http://www.ravenna-network.com/using-ravenna/overview

"RAVENNA is an open solution for transmitting audio over IP. Designed to meet the exacting standards of the Broadcast industry, RAVENNA delivers high-quality, multi-channel audio over a standard IT network."


Check out the specs it is very impressive and could be a solution for Devialet. 

I agree it would be nice if Devialet could offer Roon as an option but if they are against it for commercial reasons (which would appear to be the case) then they should seriously consider AES67.

Guillaume

That looks really interesting (I'd not heard of it), and since its used in a pro environment would most likely work pretty reliably

My question there would be, what applications would we use with it in our home ('audiophile' if you like) environments?

This is one of the most talked about DACs at the moment:

http://nadac.merging.com/nadac

I believe they have written something close to the AIR concept with a virtual sound card so you basically use whatever programme you want. 

Personally I would rather keep the PC/Mac completely out off the equation and favour a dedicated renderer/streamer approach which has been optimised for audio. As long as the control point is stable and works I am happy. No doubt all-in-one Roon boxes will be available soon, I know the Antipodes can already offer a complete solution so no need to have a computer running in the background but from what I understand there are still some issues with USB compatibility (it requires a new operating system to run on the Antipodes and as far as I know this isn't playing nicely with the Devialet, still a beta as far as I know).

Guillaume

I see.

But then we'd still be relying on Devialet to create the virtual sound card type thing albeit using Ravenna instead of AIR?  Or does Ravenna 'the organisation' provide it?  

I was kind of under the impression that with any NAA type solution - including AIR and HQPlayer's (as well as what the Devialet would become under RoonReady) - the computer is 'removed' from the system, albeit its still on the network?  The fact that its connected to the Devialet by ethernet/wifi should isolate it completely from any nasties from what I understand, and is why the trend is for the final connection going this way rather than over USB, which can carry across noise/interference.

Forgive my ignorance, I'm an armchair expert in this case, and not really an expert