Next Software Updates for Expert Amplifiers

[GuillaumeB]

I see.

But then we'd still be relying on Devialet to create the virtual sound card type thing albeit using Ravenna instead of AIR?  Or does Ravenna 'the organisation' provide it?  

I was kind of under the impression that with any NAA type solution - including AIR and HQPlayer's (as well as what the Devialet would become under RoonReady) - the computer is 'removed' from the system, albeit its still on the network?  The fact that its connected to the Devialet by ethernet/wifi should isolate it completely from any nasties from what I understand, and is why the trend is for the final connection going this way rather than over USB, which can carry across noise/interference.

Forgive my ignorance, I'm an armchair expert in this case, and not really an expert

Well Devialet would need to rewrite AIR but it would be based on a far more robust transport protocol. They could still call it AIR but the plumbing would be based on AES67 and not UDP. And given the way Ravenna works it would not dependent (in the same way) on the OS of the Mac or PC, at least that is my understanding. 

As I said - and this is personal - I would rather not have a computer in the mix. Call it personal beliefs, theories, preferences, whatever! 

Guillaume

[thumb5]

Well Devialet would need to rewrite AIR but it would be based on a far more robust transport protocol. They could still call it AIR but the plumbing would be based on AES67 and not UDP. And given the way Ravenna works it would not dependent (in the same way) on the OS of the Mac or PC, at least that is my understanding. 

AES-67 is based on RTP over UDP, I believe. But as I've mentioned before, the fact that AIR is based on UDP cannot be the fundamental cause of its problems. The fact is that robustness has to be added at a layer above UDP, which is what RTP and AES-67 (presumably) do properly.

[GuillaumeB]

Well Devialet would need to rewrite AIR but it would be based on a far more robust transport protocol. They could still call it AIR but the plumbing would be based on AES67 and not UDP. And given the way Ravenna works it would not dependent (in the same way) on the OS of the Mac or PC, at least that is my understanding. 

AES-67 is based on RTP over UDP, I believe.  But as I've mentioned before, the fact that AIR is based on UDP cannot be the fundamental cause of its problems.  The fact is that robustness has to be added at a layer above UDP, which is what RTP and AES-67 (presumably) do properly.

Ah ok... What layer is UDP in the OSI model? 2?

Guillaume

[thumb5]

UDP is normally reckoned to be layer 4 (transport), although it's a pretty thin veneer over IP at layer 3 (network).

[Vincent]

UDP is normally reckoned to be layer 4 (transport), although it's a pretty thin veneer over IP at layer 3 (network).

I've witnessed Ravenna being implemented in the pro-audio environment (UK commercial radio space), and indeed it works extremely well.  However, to reduce risk it's implemented backed with high end (read expensive) LAN kit, which is monitored as closely at a packet level as anything coming out of the speakers is.  All wired, no wireless.

I think this speaks to the overall point surrounding the whole Air issue - Devialet threw something out there that likely worked fine in the lab, but once in the wild it's a very different story.  We all have different home network setups, with different tolerances, network hardware, cables etc.  Devialet clearly couldn't legislate for this, whatever set of protocols & buffering they selected has extremely mixed results as illustrated by the varying experiences of those on this forum.

My own experience with Air was over in one rainy afternoon - I have an inherent distrust of anything that rides on my home wifi network, despite it being relatively robust, and IMHO properly engineered.  After the first few dropouts when playing hi-res I decided I didn't want to spend any time trying to fix it, and moved on.  I'm currently USB connected from a Mac mini, all controlled by Roon.  Works first time every time and sounds superb.

For me, native Roon support by Devialet would be the panacea.  Once you've used the Roon interface there's no going back.  The guys really seem to know their engineering at a network protocol level, which was proved by their fuss-free introduction of support for the Squeezebox hardware eco system recently.  A Roon controlled whole house system kicks anything else around the car park!

I'd add my voice to the suggestion to lobby Devialet to support Roon, my hope is the weight of evidence & other manufacturers getting on board will eventually force their hand, although I'm not holding my breath....

[NickB]

Just so you don't think it is only on good networks that AIR works, I have it running on my usual NUC on the most appallingly bad mains networking set up in Spin at the moment. Not sure if you know but Spanish mains is not a ring main but a series of spurs that are connected to different trip switches in no sensible pattern whatsoever and mine is fairly standard here. I get speeds between 11Mb and 136Mb and varying all over the place on what are purported to be 600Mb mains connectors. AIR just keeps working the only time it fails is when the network collapses completely and then I can't even ping the router. I am convinced that there is a kind of magic between Win10 and AIR which just seems to work.

I'm not challenging that Devialet AIR works for some and in certain setups and certain OS's. But that isn't my definition of working. Far from it in fact, and as happy as I am for people who have a working AIR setup, I don't feel the need or inclination to build a new network in my house - based on trial and error but using other people's working setups as a guide - purely to accommodate a poorly designed/implemented solution from Devialet. Nothing else designed to plug into my home network requires me to build a new one to make it work properly….

I agree, it definitely seems like they've been (sorry to use the word again) 'lucky' with Win10.  I say that since from what I've read it seems like it's only the unofficial version (i.e. the one Devialet state isn't supported on Windows 10) that works, rather than anything they developed specifically for it.  In fact, please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've read here the Win10 specific version doesn't actually seem to work on Win10?  In any case it wouldn't surprise me if, come Munich, they take advantage of this coincidence and announce that they've done a 'complete overhaul' (aka nothing) for AIR on Windows10,  and that it's now the only supported operating system.  Unless of course they announce to their joy that you can now get round these 'crazy operating system bugs sweeping through the entire Mac and Windows repertoire' by hanging the cheap looking and seemingly dangerously hot plastic 'room heater' Dialogue thing off the back of your Le Expert…. How lovely and elegant that will look wall-mounted next to my Le 200.

All I can say from my POV is that of all the technology I've bought in the last 5-10 years, the Devialet is the least reliable and so has been the most disappointing - both in the hardware/software itself, as well as in the related customer service.  I honestly don't think the machine's are fit to be sold with AIR as a selling point.  I'm also absolutely amazed that they still openly bang on about AIR and how good it is, and list it on their website and promotional material without any disclaimers about it being flakey as hell and pot luck as to whether it will actually work on a Mac or any Windows OS other than 10 (unsupported) in an average household's network environment.  And an average household's network should be all that's needed.

Now I know there are some hardcore Devialet fans here (and if they own a Devialet that looks beautiful and works then I get it) and they'll be really troubled and upset - possibly even outraged - that someone's got the nerve to openly talk badly of the French creators of their 'beloved', and if thats you I apologise profusely for I do not wish to ruin your love affair- far from it I enjoy reading many of the forum members posts here . BUT, many of us have been burned - specifically by AIR - and I just don't accept the defences such as "it works for me so it works", or "it worked for 22 minutes NON STOP for me last month", or "just give them time, I'm sure they've got engineers working day and night to fix this and they'll get there", or "its your network - you just need to make yours the same as mine and use Win10", or whatever other defence people come up with.…..  

Every now and then I look at my D200 on the wall, and while I admire its beauty (I still think it looks stunning) nothing gets me past the disappointment I feel every time I think about why I bought it and how it was intended to be used vs the reality of my Devialet experience so far.

None of this is aimed at you NickB btw, I just replied to your one about the network because it was the latest post…. Funnily enough, Spanish mains sound like my house before we had it completely rewired when we renovated - apparently the man that lived there before us wired it himself from a library book. Needless to say it failed every safety test we threw at it, and when the electricians ripped out all the redundant wiring in the under-stairs cupboard, it turned out the whole house was wired into a single fuse. I wont even talk about the myriad of junction boxes and taped wires we found under the floors.

If I am misreading your post please put me right - are you saying that the Devialet is useless or AIR is useless? Even if you take AIR out of the equation the Devialet Expert range are superb one piece systems which work amazingly with multiple input choices. I have tried many combinations of music playback from Naim to Valve based systems and to me the Devialet is better than them all by a considerable margin.

[Womaz]

I think he means AIR is useless, amd for a lot of us it was. The best thing I did was accept that and move on. But I feel let down by Devialet on this issue. Badly let down.
However it is an amazing bit of kit, one I would not be without and AIR aside I am delighted with it. I am sure Hifi swlon feels much the same

[Hifi_swlon]

Womaz was close(ish) Nick, but…..

AIR is useless, and so the Devialet/AIR combination didn't work as advertised and was a huge disappointment.  I'm not calling the hardware useless per-se, but since they were marketed and sold as a 'package' and I intended to use the D200 in that way - clearing out all hifi from my lounge except the beautiful D200 which i could allegedly stream to - it's hard not to lump them together in that sense and in my particular case.

Compared to many frequenting this forum, I'm not quite so evangelical about the D200 itself.  I was drawn to its looks, its feature set, its 'upgradeability', the remote, its streaming capabilities, the lure of modern tone controls, and its technical innovation.  More than anything, I loved the all-in-one idea, and so I actually bought it without demo  (a lot of the time I demo, but not always, and have never really been disappointed).   AIR we've covered, but since owning it I've found few of the key features really lived up to my expectations. The EVO platform 'upgradeability' seems more a marketing exercise in acronym creation than anything else, I hate the fact that I can hear 'chattering' from the PSU (I mean, my Naim was actually quiet), I love the remote as a device but since it lacks buttons you're also reliant on the iPhone ap which again looks beautiful but isn't very functional and seems like its long been forgotten, and the tone controls actually aren't really very well designed. I also don't like the fact that if I want to do something simple like enable an input, I have to go through a long-winded process with an online Configurator and SD cards. There are other niggles, but I'm sure other devices have similar issues...

How does it sound?  In my opinion I think its 'good'.  'Very good' probably.  I find the Devialet sounds 'different' to anything I've heard before though, and something about it bothers me. But this could be for so many reasons so just to be clear I don't blame the unit in any way for the way it sounds - it does what it does and its up to the user to decide if its something that suits them.  I decided to keep it, but the key factor there was getting rid of things that looked like hifi from the lounge rather than anything else, and this was a decision that had been made based on the Devialet's looks and streaming capability - the faults with AIR I foolishly assumed would be fixed in no time and I figured the issues I'd read on forums must have been exaggerated….. after all, its a £5000 device. How wrong I was.

So, removing AIR (which is hard for me) it's a nice DAC/amplifier, but the frustration it's caused - exaggerated by Devialet's arrogant stance - has massively overpowered any positives.   I'll replace it in a heartbeat as soon as there's a suitable candidate and I'm in a position to do so.  

Now I make sure I send the message about AIR far and wide.  I don't want anyone else to get suckered into buying one thinking they can reliably stream to it, if thats how they intend to use it.  Sure if it's a bonus feature then fine, take a chance, but if you need/want to use to that way steer clear - the world in this area is evolving fast and there are loads of other options out there, even more if you assume you have to connect via USB or whatever.

[Hifi_swlon]

…..The best thing I did was accept that and move on. …..

Yeah, I should probably try harder to do this

I keep thinking I have, but then someone starts banging on about AIR not being a problem and it winds me up. Devialet telling me 'I was welcome not to use it' didn't exactly help 

Maybe a bit of therapy or ignore these forums for a bit, but I really like the Devialetchat crowd

[Cylob]

"I was drawn to its looks, its feature set, its 'upgradeability', the remote, its streaming capabilities, the lure of modern tone controls, and its technical innovation."

Exactly why I've bought it, but most of all it's streaming capabilities. AIR functionality is essential for me.
Tired of that 5m USB cable running through my living room now to avoid more white noise / random reboot horror.
And I'm tired of the promises by my dealer / Devialet as well.
Fixing AIR should have been their main priority. But looking back it seems Phantom got in the way.