Next Software Updates for Expert Amplifiers

[AllenB]

There's been a couple of posts here denouncing Roon, when supposedly, all we need is UPnP/DLNA or Homefront. Here is why Roon denounce those protocols (in short terms):-
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/whats-w...-upnp/2101

UPnP is archaic, I spent many years on Naim Forum arguing this fact in terms of the Naim App (formerly NStream), sadly most software for music playing (and other media as well) is based on this, and embellished, mostly in an unexciting way, by use of local xml and database files to be something else, when really it is simply a library tree. The official answer I got from Naim, on many occasions, was that their software could only do what the UPnP server presented to them. And so it is with any other control software based on UPnP, and on the whole, it's passable, not great.

Ultimately it is about how you browse and listen to music, but Roon has many, many hidden depths already, you have to use it (not just look at it and play with it it for half an hour) to appreciate what is going on. Great thing is there is a whole journey still to be had with Roon with many embellishments chalked for the future. Even so and as of now, it is streets ahead of any other music management software I have come across.

Horses for course, Devialet is fantastic with the hardware (in this respect same as Naim) but sadly lacking in the software department (again, same as Naim).

IMO of course.

[Hifi_swlon]

...

IMO of course.

I think you can safely say a few people share those views

[thumb5]

I have no interest in defending Devialet's software incompetence, but one shouldn't blame UDP for their problems unless it is their problem understanding how to use UDP.

That was exactly my point; sorry if I didn't make it clear.

[Hifi_swlon]

OK, so in retrospect I probably didn't paraphrase the Devialet engineers alleged statement accurately, and I couldn't find it when I tried - but I know it's here somewhere.....

I believe it was actually more like 'they chose a protocol that gave priority to SQ rather than stability/robustness'. Same thing really from my POV, but just in case it was misleading.

[ozthepoz]

I am wondering what the setup is from all with issues with Air...  I have made a separate streaming network for audio and it works perfect.... Cable modem wired to Airport Extreme (turn all wireless signals from cable modem off, make a 2.4 and 5 ghz network) + a separate Airport express extending the Airport network and have this little box next to the Devialet...

Maybe I'm just lucky, hopefully I can help you to get Air working...

-streaming from MacBook Air with Tidal or  iTunes-

I have a similar setup, except that the Extreme is linked to the Devialet via ethernet and the smaller Express unit is connected back to my cable modem. 

This gives me two options, ETH or WIFI. I tend to use ETH at 24/192K and it works a treat.

[Hifi_swlon]

I am wondering what the setup is from all with issues with Air...  I have made a separate streaming network for audio and it works perfect.... Cable modem wired to Airport Extreme (turn all wireless signals from cable modem off, make a 2.4 and 5 ghz network) + a separate Airport express extending the Airport network and have this little box next to the Devialet...

Maybe I'm just lucky, hopefully I can help you to get Air working...

-streaming from MacBook Air with Tidal or  iTunes-

Like you say, maybe you're just lucky

[Petter]

yes that works….i also have used the same system with airport express and must had been be lucky too nowadays use cable from modem to switch and from there to Devialet

Just feelt it was a upgrade soundvice with cabel via switch instead of the airport

[jjo]

I think most of us with Devialet have a pc or Mac somewhere in the network as we intended to use AIR.

The beauty of RAAT or AIR is the computer doesn't need to be located anywhere near the amplifier, wired Ethernet or home plugs are both pretty reliable so the box count is the same as upnp (nas) or your Streamer but can be located anywhere.

I was one of the people originally requesting UPNP but having now used JRiver/ Jremote and then moved on to ROON I now find the UPNP solutions basic by comparison.

I happen to be a Linux user and while I do own a Mac, I never intended to use AIR.

OpenHome(DLNA/UPnP) don't need a separate computer to be located near the amplifier either, because in this case the amplifier happens to be a computer.

Also I have no idea why selecting which files to play and playing them, needs to be anything but basic. The user interface is a completely separate thing from the streaming protocol.

Speaking as someone who used to write UPnP control software I use Roon. You, we can talk about who controls the master clock & the path the audio travel but put simply, the Roon user experience it head and shoulders better than what can be offered by UPnP and the like

I'm really confused about this message. This is because I have no idea what "the master clock" has to do with anything related to this and because "the path the audio travels" is all about network infrastructure and nothing to do with streaming protocol.

So first Devialet tell us that UPNP is not fit for purpose, yet Linn (and no doubt plenty of others) have implemented this with no dropouts or white noise and with reasonable sound quality. And now we find out that Devialet have based AIR on UDP, "an unreliable protocol"?! Hmm... 

Linn has actually implemented OpenHome on top of UPnP to give it a few more (desired) features, and they've actually made it open source. UPnP is not streaming audio as such, but transferring files. If you have the file and you're doing the playing yourself, I don't see what is supposed to make the end result worse. But then again, I mostly deal with software.

While the UDP is in theory unreliable (compared to TCP), it will not lose any packets in an isolated home network. If it does it is a problem with the network, not UDP.

But the case I was trying to make for the OpenHome(DLNA/UPnP) was that they are open and widely supported. Imagine Devialet going bankrupt. Because AIR needs drivers and active maintenance, it would no longer work after the next OS update. The open solutions would continue working as long as the amp does.

Lets imagine a Linux/BSD/WindowsPhone user wanted to stream. That would require a big development effort from Devialet. With open solutions a basic support would already be there.

Same goes actually for the configurator. If Devialet would happen to vanish off the face of the earth, none of us would configure our Devialets anymore. Lets hope that doesn't happen or that we've got a kick ass configuration we never want to change. If we had a web interface for configuring in the amp itself, well that would works as long as we had browsers.

I am not against the flavour of the month in streaming protocols, but I do feel that the basic shit needs to be there first.

I have no idea how much better RAAT is at transferring bits across the networks. It should really be a simple task for any protocol, but lets assume it is better. I still doubt that the PC operating system support, mobile plarform support or application support is nowhere near the level of OpenHome.

I'm sure RAAT would be awesome for you in this exact time, but it wouldn't be useable for the majority of people and no one really knows what the situation is in the future. So based on this, I would not say it should be the first priority although I wouldn't be against it if the shit that works for everyone would be there already.

[Hifi_swlon]

…...Imagine Devialet going bankrupt. Because AIR needs drivers and active maintenance, it would no longer work after the next OS update.

jjo I actually really liked your post, but I did have a little chuckle at the above - if only that were a problem for many of us

I disagree about the specifics of going open source personally, but purely because I don't want anything based on Upnp, and open home seems too new to tell how well it will be adopted - either way it just seems to be a lashing of something onto something else to reduce the development burden.

But who knows, maybe in the future I wont be using Roon and so might need another system, or others might prefer to use something else, so I agree a choice would be god and a new attitude towards supporting other options would be good too.

I dont want to keep dragging Roon threads over here, so I wont link to it but there's a really nice topic where they discuss why they absolutely don't think upnp has a place in todays world, and another where they discuss the technical merits of RAAT. Obviously they may be biased, but I like their openness. and it all seems pretty well based on solid reasoning.

[blair.athol]

I am wondering what the setup is from all with issues with Air...  I have made a separate streaming network for audio and it works perfect.... Cable modem wired to Airport Extreme (turn all wireless signals from cable modem off, make a 2.4 and 5 ghz network) + a separate Airport express extending the Airport network and have this little box next to the Devialet...

Maybe I'm just lucky, hopefully I can help you to get Air working...

-streaming from MacBook Air with Tidal or  iTunes-

Like you say, maybe you're just lucky

Seems there are many people just being lucky... statistically speaking I am not sure what lucky means then...
For my case, I just have set up my system with a lan cable between my Mac and my Time capsule and from my time capsule to my Devialet. Air works perfectly with iTunes or Qobuz app from my Mac. Qobuz even offers direct mode with Air. This is not possible with Roon. So, I think although Roon is a great software, it is not Devialets fault that exclusive mode is not working.