Roon RAAT and "An audio file is loading slowly"

[mdconnelly]

My guess is that there is a fundamental problem with ethernet into the Expert Pros (he says totally guessing since no one - not Roon nor Devialet - have even hinted at exactly what the problem may be). I'd say that if wireless works to your Devialet, that may be the best strategy. Mine is a bit too far from the wireless router to be 100% dependable. But 100mpbs ethernet works fine most of the time for me although I have had an occasional pause/dropout of the music.

[David A]

If there is a "fundamental flaw with Ethernet into the Expert Pros" why is nobody reporting problems with Roon AIR over ethernet and why did these problems only appear after the Roon Ready OS/FW update in February when people had been running gigabit connections and Roon AIR to CI board equipped Expert Pro's since the CI board upgrades started in December 2017?

We've got15 months of no one reporting an issue before the current OS/FW update in February, we've got no one reporting a problem with Roon AIR over gigabit ethernet since then, and we've got Roon, who at least have made some statements, saying that they didn't notice any problems during their certification testing process for the Devialet.

If there was a fundamental flaw with ethernet in the Expert Pros it should have appeared earlier, it should be affecting Roon AIR as well as RAAT, and it should be affecting ethernet connections from other server software as well. Here in Australia the CI board upgrades were done in local dealer premises by a Devialet engineer who travelled around the country. I saw the boards that were removed from the amps upgraded at my dealer's premises and the old ethernet ports were physically attached to those boards so the whole ethernet hardware got replaced in the upgrades. If there was a fundamental flaw it should have been evident from the start, it shouldn't be starting to show up 15 months later after an OS/FW update and only with one specific streaming protocol.

I agree there's a problem. I just can't see how we could call it a "fundamental problem with ethernet into the Expert Pros" when you look at that history. A "fundamental problem" should have shown up at the start and should be affecting everyone no matter what streaming protocol they're using.

[maxijazz]

If there was a fundamental flaw with ethernet in the Expert Pros [...]

I think you are right.
I have got the error twice, yesterday and today, while on WiFi. So error is not related to Ethernet hardware. 

I have noticed, that Roon GUI was sluggish before the errors. When I hit play button it was doing that circling line (equivalent of rotating sandglass in Windows) like it could not read flac file from local storage. 
I know it was not about the file, but most likely trying to communicate D220. Then I got the error.

PS. Problem is in software. I guess. Question on wat side, Roon’s Or D’s.

[mdconnelly]

@David A , all good points (and my wording was "fundamentally" flawed ;-) I didn't mean to imply that it is hardware related (or at least, truly hope it is not). While I haven't a clue as to the actual problem, my gut says it's likely an issue with Devialet's implementation of the RAAT protocol over ethernet, but why it primarily manifests itself at gigabit network speed (for many but not all) and not slower ethernet or wifi speeds will likely remain a mystery until the problem is addressed and new OS/firmware released.

This is the problem with Devialet's total lack of communication - it leaves us with far too much time surmising as to what the problem is hoping one of us will stumble across a fix and better understanding.

[audio_engr]

@mdconnelly

100% in agreement with your post. 

Last 2 weeks, @David A and I worked together doing some experiments and in the end, indeed - we succumbed that "devialet had to fix this problem" but we all know how and most importantly the rate in which Devialet acts. 

Hmm! dunno how long this will take ... months ???

[mdconnelly]

Well, we're already well into "months". Devialet and Roon both claimed Roon RAAT to Expert Pros a success back in February when Devialet released their lastest Firmware 13.1.3 + DOS 2.2.4. My fear is that at some point we will once again need to start banging on Devialet's door (logging more tickets), in order to get any kind of response. But my hope is that Roon is already doing just that. Time will tell.

[David A]

@mdconnelly , @audio_engr

How long will it take? How long is a piece of string? Sorry but I couldn't resist that old one.

Devialet have Matthieu Pernot doing 2 appearances at Oxford Audio Consultants and Hidden Systems in the UK on the 17th and 18th of June, a bit under 2 weeks away. He has to be expecting questions on this so hopefully he'll have some answers. Even more hopefully he'll want to say "It's fixed" which would mean we'll see a fix before then. Well, actually I'll be he'd love to say "It's fixed" but he may not and we may still be waiting and he'll just be fielding the questions with nothing to offer.

At least we know that if we haven't seen something from Devialet before then, someone is going to ask him the question on the 17th and we will hear back from someone who was present just what his answer is. The 17th is 3 days short of 4 months since the release of the Roon Ready update and they really should have made some sort of response to owners by now.

A couple of weeks back I posted a method of making a direct ethernet connection from a Roon Nucleus to a Devialet with no intervening switch between Nucleus and Devialet. This is the "experiments" @audio_engr mentioned and it's been very helpful having two of us trialling things as I've worked at it. I started trying to come up with a way of doing this in the hope of getting better sound quality, not because of the problem we're discussing here because I wasn't noticing the problem we're discussing here. I do think it delivers improved sound quality.

I now have found a better way of handling the manual IP addresses required to make that work, discovered on one of the Roon forums and provided by Danny Dulai of Roon. It also works for Intel NUC's running ROCK, in fact it was posted in a thread relating to Intel NUCs which is why I initially missed it. I can't say it totally solves the problem and the best results I've got with it involve using a USB2 to ethernet adapter for the connection to the Devialet but my understanding is that a USB adapter limits the connection to 10/100 ethernet. I occasionally notice what may be a small "micro dropout", almost like a very brief drop in volume and last night, streaming something from Tidal, I started getting a "file is loading slowly from Tidal" error message and stuttering sound. That error message said that the issue could be a Tidal or network issue so it may well have just been that rather than the issue that concerns us here. Danny's connection method can be found in this thread if you scroll down to the post from Danny which is highlighted in yellow:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/rock-du...d/26222/11

Unfortunately this method isn't going to work for everyone because not everyone uses a NUC or Roon Nucleus and for those who do it requires your Devialet to be connected directly, ie not over your network, to the NUC/Nucleus and you still need your normal network connection for the NUC/Nucleus. That arrangement may not be physically possible for everyone using a NUC or Nucleus and, as I said, I think I'm noticing very brief and minor issues anyway, even using a 10/100 USB2 to ethernet adapter for the connection. On the plus side this method isolates the music signal traffic between NUC/Nucleus and the Devialet completely from traffic on your network and delivers improved sound quality to my ears. It's not perfect but it works very well apart from that occasional "micro dropout" I mentioned and as I said, it works best when you avoid a gigabit connection between the NUC/Nucleus and Devialet so it's basically just another option for some of those dropping their connection speed to 10/100 in order to get around the problem.

This method is available to anyone who wants to try it but at present I would recommend using a USB2 to ethernet adapter rather than a USB3 adapter. As I said, I think it still doesn't offer a perfect solution but I'd say it's a 98 or 99% perfect solution with a 10/100 ethernet connection between NUC/Nucleus and Devialet and a bit less good than that in my system with a USB3 to ethernet adapter. I can't guarantee that it will be equally problem free for anyone else in relation to the problem we're concerned about here. I do think there has to be something about different network paths and things like switches which relates to why some people get the problem and some people don't. I definitely think it's a Devialet problem but I do think there's something different in different people's networks which is determining whether or not they get the problem and how badly it affects them if they get it.

[David A]

Well, we're already well into "months".   Devialet and Roon both claimed Roon RAAT to Expert Pros a success back in February when Devialet released their lastest Firmware 13.1.3 + DOS 2.2.4.   My fear is that at some point we will once again need to start banging on Devialet's door (logging more tickets), in order to get any kind of response.   But my hope is that Roon is already doing just that.   Time will tell.

Roon have said that the problem didn't show in certification testing. I believe them. Some people get the problem and some don't. Something is causing that difference and it has to be something in how their networks are set up, whether it be in wiring topology or different combinations of routers/switches/whatever. Devialet probably didn't run into it either. I think both firms were satisfied that things were working well back when the update was released.

It doesn't matter how thorough your testing is, bugs can still sneak through undetected only to show up in some users systems. Tracking down those bugs when they are discovered isn't always simple or quick. I'm not trying to defend either Roon or Devialet, I'm just stating a fact any of us who have been using computers for any length of time come to get experience of. I don't think we should criticise either Roon or Devialet for the fact that a problem crept through testing without being discovered. That happens. I do think we can criticise Devialet for how they've handled the problem so far.

[K4680]

Well, we're already well into "months".   Devialet and Roon both claimed Roon RAAT to Expert Pros a success back in February when Devialet released their lastest Firmware 13.1.3 + DOS 2.2.4.   My fear is that at some point we will once again need to start banging on Devialet's door (logging more tickets), in order to get any kind of response.   But my hope is that Roon is already doing just that.   Time will tell.

Roon have said that the problem didn't show in certification testing. I believe them. Some people get the problem and some don't. Something is causing that difference and it has to be something in how their networks are set up, whether it be in wiring topology or different combinations of routers/switches/whatever. Devialet probably didn't run into it either. I think both firms were satisfied that things were working well back when the update was released.

It doesn't matter how thorough your testing is, bugs can still sneak through undetected only to show up in some users systems. Tracking down those bugs when they are discovered isn't always simple or quick. I'm not trying to defend either Roon or Devialet, I'm just stating a fact any of us who have been using computers for any length of time come to get experience of. I don't think we should criticise either Roon or Devialet for the fact that a problem crept through testing without being discovered. That happens. I do think we can criticise Devialet for how they've handled the problem so far.

Hi, I totally agree with you, it's not Roon nor Devialet !! It is due to the network environments of the user, how else should it be possible that it runs in many users without problems. My suggestion to build only a minimal network with Roon and Devialet (without switch, disconnect all other devices from the network), and then test.

[petrik]

Roon and Devialet both recommend using a simple unmanaged switch between the Roon Server and the Devialet. I got this information confirmed from Devialet's support.

Devialet should provide a fix so that this recommended configuration works and Devialet support agrees on this. Devialet's engineers are aware of this issue but they couldn't give any estimate when the fix will be released.

As I have said earlier, I have tried three different unmanaged gigabit switches, two different routers, different network settings on the router, and different network cables but these didn't help at all - I was having the same problems no matter what kind of network configuration I was using. I didn't try direct connection between the Roon Server and the Devialet because Devialet's support didn't recommend using this kind of configuration.