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Sam
#21
(30-Jul-2020, 04:47)no32 Wrote: I didn’t like anything about it
When I tried it with Wilson’s the bass was too boomy and didn’t play much of the notes
With yg it didn’t do anything, ( Sam didn’t have anything to correct) I just found it very unpleasant to listen to music for more than an hour

I’m certain it’s doing wonderful things to some speakers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But, at least, you found something, even if not very good, I never noticed any difference at all.
Innuos ZenMini, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#22
Its doing wonder's to my Sonus Faber Stradivari,  set at 53% . Deeper cleaner bass, much improved over no SAM
220 Pro/CI, Rega RP8/Apheta 2, NAS/Roon, Furutech e-TP86 power distributor, Audoquest NRG10, Furutech Flux-50 filter, Furutect Powerflux, Furutech Speakerflux, Sonus Faber Stradivari. 
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#23
Sorry for chiming in this late.

Following the discussion here leaves a few questions about using SAM.

Firtstly, how are the SAM curves for the individual speakers established by Devialet? Since the room and speaker placement influences so much the sound, the curves must have been established by measuring them straight on the speakers, that means the mic points onto the woofer, correct? But doing it in this way, couldn’t this also introduce time incoherence with, say the the midrange driver/tweeter? Or are the SAM curves taken in an anechoic chamber?

Secondly, if SAM can kick in some room nodes, so why doing it altogether? I know one has to try, but to me the concept seems to be too much influenced by the speaker‘s environment.

Thirdly, I am asking myself how room EQing interferes, or is influenced, by SAM. Most rooms need some EQing in the range between 100-200 Hz, and, remembering Devialet‘s statement, that’s where SAM kicks in.

I did try SAM (40%) with my speakers (ATC SCM19) but it was strange in the sense that in most cases, I couldn‘t hear much difference, but in a few cases it kicked in and made the bass over-represented to an extent that made me jump. So in the end I disabled it altogether.
SonicTransporter i5 - AirPort Extreme - Devialet Expert 120 - ATC SCM 19 v1
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#24
Here is how SAM profile is made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcLYb4sBhwQ
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#25
(31-Jul-2020, 11:11)Sailor4W Wrote:
Secondly, if SAM can kick in some room nodes, so why doing it altogether? I know one has to try, but to me the concept seems to be too much influenced by the speaker‘s environment.

Thirdly, I am asking myself how room EQing interferes, or is influenced, by SAM. Most rooms need some EQing in the range between 100-200 Hz, and, remembering Devialet‘s statement, that’s where SAM kicks in.…

Why use SAM if it can kick in some room modes? Well, not using SAM will kick in the same modes but probably not as severely. It's not SAM that's activating the room modes, it's frequencies that are present in the music on the recording. In addition, SAM is not intended to correct room behaviour, it's intended to correct a problem with speaker behaviour at low frequencies. That correction may cause an issue for room modes in one room but it also won't cause an issue in a lot of other rooms and, if it does cause an issue then you have some control over the resulting problem by adjusting the setting of the SAM level downwards or even removing the SAM profile from your configurator file. SAM is definitely beneficial for many people and correcting speaker phase behaviour at low frequencies is beneficial in theory. It's a good option to have, even if you personally don't like the result. I liked SAM with the speakers I had when I got my Devialet and then some time later I upgraded my speakers. I don't like what it does in my room with my new speakers so I don't use SAM with them. 

As to room EQ, if SAM exacerbates a room mode you'll need a bit more EQ correction for the boosted peaks occurring at the listening position and the amount of EQ correction you will need will be dependent on the size of the boost SAM provides so it is going to depend to a degree on your SAM setting. When it comes to the dips at the listening position caused by a mode exacerbated by SAM there's probably nothing you can do. You can't correct a modal dip by boosting the level at that frequency because the dip will just swallow the boost, the dip exists because you have a null pressure zone in that area of the room. You can reduce peaks  but you can't correct dips with EQ. If you've got a dip with SAM, you will also have a dip without SAM. The only way to deal with dips is probably to move the listening position out or the area where the dip is located but that may move it into an area where you have a dip from another modal frequency. 

Basically, SAM doesn't cause any room problems but it can make an existing problem worse. If y ou get a room modal problem with SAM, the problem already existed but perhaps not serverely enough for you to notice it. The way to fix room modal problems exacerbated by SAM is the same way you fix room modal problems normally but if you don't want to address the modal problems directly then lowering the SAM level will reduce the severaty of the exacerbation and removing SAM from your profile will leave you with just the original room problems you always had.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#26
(31-Jul-2020, 23:02)David A Wrote:
(31-Jul-2020, 11:11)Sailor4W Wrote:
Secondly, if SAM can kick in some room nodes, so why doing it altogether? I know one has to try, but to me the concept seems to be too much influenced by the speaker‘s environment.

Thirdly, I am asking myself how room EQing interferes, or is influenced, by SAM. Most rooms need some EQing in the range between 100-200 Hz, and, remembering Devialet‘s statement, that’s where SAM kicks in.…

Why use SAM if it can kick in some room modes? Well, not using SAM will kick in the same modes but probably not as severely. It's not SAM that's activating the room modes, it's frequencies that are present in the music on the recording. In addition, SAM is not intended to correct room behaviour, it's intended to correct a problem with speaker behaviour at low frequencies. That correction may cause an issue for room modes in one room but it also won't cause an issue in a lot of other rooms and, if it does cause an issue then you have some control over the resulting problem by adjusting the setting of the SAM level downwards or even removing the SAM profile from your configurator file. SAM is definitely beneficial for many people and correcting speaker phase behaviour at low frequencies is beneficial in theory. It's a good option to have, even if you personally don't like the result. I liked SAM with the speakers I had when I got my Devialet and then some time later I upgraded my speakers. I don't like what it does in my room with my new speakers so I don't use SAM with them. 

As to room EQ, if SAM exacerbates a room mode you'll need a bit more EQ correction for the boosted peaks occurring at the listening position and the amount of EQ correction you will need will be dependent on the size of the boost SAM provides so it is going to depend to a degree on your SAM setting. When it comes to the dips at the listening position caused by a mode exacerbated by SAM there's probably nothing you can do. You can't correct a modal dip by boosting the level at that frequency because the dip will just swallow the boost, the dip exists because you have a null pressure zone in that area of the room. You can reduce peaks  but you can't correct dips with EQ. If you've got a dip with SAM, you will also have a dip without SAM. The only way to deal with dips is probably to move the listening position out or the area where the dip is located but that may move it into an area where you have a dip from another modal frequency. 

Basically, SAM doesn't cause any room problems but it can make an existing problem worse. If y ou get a room modal problem with SAM, the problem already existed but perhaps not serverely enough for you to notice it. The way to fix room modal problems exacerbated by SAM is the same way you fix room modal problems normally but if you don't want to address the modal problems directly then lowering the SAM level will reduce the severaty of the exacerbation and removing SAM from your profile will leave you with just the original room problems you always had.

Thanks for the explanations! Kicking in room modes was maybe imprecisely described, exacerbating is the appropriate expression!

My experience with SAM was mixed. As I said, it also depends on the recording. With some albums, I hear no effect at all with SAM, with others, particularly with recent recordings, SAM all of a sudden boosts low frequencies, even though it's set only to 20%. Might just as well be the effect of a room mode that is not so perceptible in the absence of SAM.

Good to know that SAM can be combined with EQing!
SonicTransporter i5 - AirPort Extreme - Devialet Expert 120 - ATC SCM 19 v1
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#27
In my case the sound improvement delivered by SAM is significant, but it did force me to finally invest in room acoustics... and that was really even more important in the end.

Cheers,
Bernard
Room: Gik Acoustics | Vibration: Townshend pods | Power: Shunyata Omega XC + Everest + Sigma NR v2 + Sigma ground cables | Source: Mac mini with LPS running Roon core (Raat) | Ethernet: Sonore Optical module + Melco S10 + Shunyata Omega Ethernet| Dac/Pre/Amplification: Devialet D1000 Pro CI (Chord Sarum T RCA-RCA link) | Speakers: Chord Sarum T + Wilson Benesch Act One Evolution P1
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#28
(03-Aug-2020, 13:48)bernardl Wrote: In my case the sound improvement delivered by SAM is significant, but it did force me to finally invest in room acoustics... and that was really even more important in the end.

Cheers,
Bernard

+1
Exactly!

SAM or upgrade 220>440>1000 are improvement sound but often reveals room acoustic.

Digital: Tidal,Qobuz ROON on NUC 8i3 | Analog: Pro-Ject Xtension 10 evolution, Cadenza Black | Devialet 440 pro Ci (2x220) | Speaker: Magico S7 M-Coat | Cable: Mit evo one | Power: PSaudio PS12, Shunyata Delta EF | Headphone: Audeze MX4, Chord Hugo2 | 2x Devialet Reactor 900 on Ipod 
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