Shunyata Research

[Wdw]

@Damon Very interested to hear your thoughts once you try, I am considering going down this path as well, but no easy way to demo first.

@baddog...not to derail Damon's thread but just to add another data point to your query expressed above as you have, I believe, the same dual monos D440 as I do.
I recently added The Audioquest Niagara 5000 to my system and it quickly took control of the D440's, adding a larger level of authority and definition; bass punch and clarity.   The 5000 has two isolated banks dedicated for mono-blocks with the remaining four banks intended for low level source items. 
Do have to admit after reading of Damon's experience and his comparisons, I possibly should have, but didn't, listen to the Shunyata when making my evaluation.

[Pim]

Hello Chatters,

I have a dedicated circuit for my hifi, but I did have a lamp with a compact fluorescent bulb in the same outlet. Other gear not connected to either product, so not affected.

If the class has any questions, I'll try and give any help I can.

Hi Damon. Pim here at the back of the class. 

I see power supply a bit like tap water; if it's clean it doesn't need to be filtered. You're using a dedicated power circuit, which could be quite clean, but then you plugged in a fluorescent light. Fluorescents cause interference in power circuits.

So what I'm wondering is this; did the Denali / AQ 1000 clean the dirt you added with the fluorescent light or did they clean the dedicated circuit regardless of the light? It would be easy to check. Just unplug the light and listen for differences again.

The reason I'm asking is because I'm interested to see how clean or dirty a dedicated circuit can be. I've installed dedicated circuits in our new living room but the room has such enormous echo I can't possibly hear any difference in my system. Getting the room to sound any good isn't going to happen anytime soon ( or ever   ) so I've decided to dedicate a bedroom to my hifi in the future and just go all out in it. I'm just wondering if I should put in another dedicated circuit or just go with a Denali.

[David A]

Hi Damon. Pim here at the back of the class. 

I see power supply a bit like tap water; if it's clean it doesn't need to be filtered. You're using a dedicated power circuit, which could be quite clean, but then you plugged in a fluorescent light. Fluorescents cause interference in power circuits.

So what I'm wondering is this; did the Denali / AQ 1000 clean the dirt you added with the fluorescent light or did they clean the dedicated circuit regardless of the light? It would be easy to check. Just unplug the light and listen for differences again.

The reason I'm asking is because I'm interested to see how clean or dirty a dedicated circuit can be. I've installed dedicated circuits in our new living room but the room has such enormous echo I can't possibly hear any difference in my system. Getting the room to sound any good isn't going to happen anytime soon ( or ever   ) so I've decided to dedicate a bedroom to my hifi in the future and just go all out in it. I'm just wondering if I should put in another dedicated circuit or just go with a Denali.

Pim,

I don't have an AQ Niagara or a Denali (I'm waiting for the Denali to be released in Australia) but I am using an Isotek Aquarius and I have a dedicated circuit with nothing plugged into it other than the Isotek which is feeding my system.

I can remember the dedicated circuit making an improvement when I had it installed several years ago and the Aquarius makes an improvement on the dedicated circuit. The dedicated circuit simply helps isolate the system from all of the other electrical devices in the house but it does nothing to clean up the power coming off the grid so if you have problems with the power coming from your mains line the dedicated circuit is still going to let any noise on your mains line go through to your system. You'll just add less noise from the rest of the house.

A lot depends on what you're getting from the mains. I'm in suburban Brisbane and you're in northern NSW. Depending on where you are and where your nearest mains substation is you may well have less noise on your mains line than I have in mine, simply because there's probably a lot more people and industry connected to the line in my area. If that's the case you'd see less of an improvement with a power conditioner than I do.

The other advantage of a conditioner is that good conditioners isolate each component plugged into the conditioner from each other and I wonder whether that may contribute as much or more to the improvement I hear as does the cleaning up of the power from my mains.

So basically, in my experience, a dedicated line definitely helps, a power conditioner helps, and the combination of a dedicated line and a power conditioner is better than a dedicated line on its own. What I can't say is that a dedicated line plus a power conditioner is better than the power conditioner on its own because I've never tried that, I had the dedicated line installed before I got a power conditioner. I added a power conditioner to a dedicated line but I haven't added a dedicated line to a power conditioner.

I think a lot depends on the quality of your local power and a lot also depends on the quality of the power conditioner and when it comes to the quality of the power conditioner things will depend on how it handles the power being fed to it plus also how well it isolates the components plugged into it from each other.

[sam1000]

What David said. Dedicated line will cost you much less than any of the other devices, but it’s a foundation. Then you can decide on either Denali or other power conditioning devices. Typically they would work best in conjunction with each other. That’s not to say that Denali will not benefit without the dedicated line though. It will bring incremental improvements in SQ.

[Damon]

So what I'm wondering is this; did the Denali / AQ 1000 clean the dirt you added with the fluorescent light or did they clean the dedicated circuit regardless of the light? It would be easy to check. Just unplug the light and listen for differences again.

The reason I'm asking is because I'm interested to see how clean or dirty a dedicated circuit can be. I've installed dedicated circuits in our new living room but the room has such enormous echo I can't possibly hear any difference in my system. Getting the room to sound any good isn't going to happen anytime soon ( or ever)

Hi Pim,

All good points to ponder. My system is in the living room, and there is no way I can re arrange things and still have a reasonable place to sit. Furniture is in the way and that is just how it is going to be. My room has enough stuff and intrusions and openings that echo isn't a problem, but I am far from set up for imaging or depth or soundstage.  Pic attached for reference.

When we reno'd about 15 years ago, I had a dedicated circuit installed. It was a minor thing to do then, so hardly a noticeable expense. Naturally, that outlet is in the wrong spot now, so longer cords are needed. One thing I did not do while testing was try either item on the non-dedicated circuit right under the equipment. Nor did I try with and without the light on. In fact, I can't even remember if it was on or off. That light is on a timer, so I'd guess it was on. (Note fireplace is still in progress after 15 years.....)

Everyone I speak to says a dedicated circuit is important, so when it was easy to do, I did it. Hard to say if a conditioner is an equal alternative, but I think, based on dim memories, that the conditioner did things the circuit itself did not. It is my impression (and only that) that the conditioner made more difference. But as I say, I haven't made that direct comparison. I will do so and report back, if you are interested. I don't know anything about the quality of power here, but I always assume it is good. Perhaps this comes back to your question: even on a dedicated circuit, both the Niagara and the Denali improved the sound.

One last thing, thinking back to rooms and echos. With both products, I heard the detail and impact I felt I was missing, and that meant that I heard more detail and dynamics at a lower volume. Without a AQ or Denali, louder did not yield that detail. In that respect, a power conditioning may be one way to ease the pressure on room acoustics. 

   

[David A]

Damon,

"…I think, based on dim memories, that the conditioner did things the circuit itself did not. It is my impression (and only that) that the conditioner made more difference…" I think your memory is accurate. The dedicated line and the power conditioner do different things and both can be beneficial. Which one is more beneficial is probably going to depend on whether the biggest part of any power problems you have is coming from a dirty mains supply or from noise sources within your own home so the dedicated line may make more of a difference for some people, the power conditioner for others, but I do think the combined benefit of both is greater than the benefit of either on its own.

"… thinking back to rooms and echos. With both products, I heard the detail and impact I felt I was missing, and that meant that I heard more detail and dynamics at a lower volume. Without a AQ or Denali, louder did not yield that detail. In that respect, a power conditioning may be one way to ease the pressure on room acoustics. " I find that lowering the noise floor usually results in my playing things a little less loudly than I previously did. I think we often turn the volume up in order to hear detail a little more clearly but turning the volume up in a small space, and acoustically our listening rooms are usually small spaces, exacerbates a number of room acoustic problems so a power conditioner may help ease the pressure on room acoustic issues as you say if it allows you to play things a little less loudly.

While I like the look of your living room (I've always wanted the Noguchi coffee table but it's always been too big for the space I have in my living room) I cans why you may have some issues with it. My room is acoustically treated but in part that's because it's a dedicated listening room, not a living room. One thing about acoustic treatments is that they tend to visually detract from the room so they definitely tend not to be living room friendly. Can I make one suggestion, however. Is it possible for you to move your speakers forward a little so that the front baffles are level with or slightly in front of the face of the fireplace? Years ago in a different house I had my speakers close to the wall behind them because of space issues. Everyone talks about the bass reinforcement you get when you place your speakers close to the wall. When I moved to my current home I was able to pull them out a lot further from the wall. I expected to lose some bass when I did that and I did, but nowhere near as much as I was expecting. The bass was also a little clearer which was nice but what really surprised me was how much sweeter, less harsh, and more open the high frequencies were. I think you may be able to get a bit more detail and dynamics without having to raise the volume, and perhaps even being able to lower it fractionally, if you move the speakers forward a little bit. I don't know whether you'll feel that's possible given that the room does have to function as a living room but if you feel you can do it I think it's worth the try.

[Damon]

@David A
Well spotted on the table, That was a test, actually; just to see if anyone notices anything without wires attached. It was my parent's table, and just came into our house. I have no doubt that it does not help the soundstage thing. Previously we had a longer, narrower wood coffee table, and I think there is an effect, but there is so much other furniture close to, and in front of, the speaker that the table is a minor issue.

But to your point about speaker position. They actually are in front of the fireplace- see pic attached. I wish I could give them free space but, there is not any available. These speakers have a bottom port which I think makes them a bit less sensitive to the back/ rear wall in terms of bass reinforcement- at least in terms of the port. However, there is also a rear firing tweeter on the speaker which benefits from the wall behind. So, a bit of a balancing act is required.

Your experience about the high frequency change in relation to the rear / behind wall is interesting, however. Not something I've thought about. Bass yes; treble is less often mentioned in this regard.

I liked your earlier post about power conditioners and power quality. All good, considered thoughts. I'll be doing what I can to work with @Pim 's questions as well as your positioning observations when the Denail arrives.

   

[David A]

Damon,

I do notice contemporary furniture. One or both of your parents has/had good taste.

Thanks for the second photo which really makes a difference. In the first photo the fronts of the speakers looks like they're actually behind the face of the fireplace. That must be due to a combination of the black colour of the baffle and the angle of the light. Also the fireplace looks deeper in the first photo than it does in the second where you can see the side of it.

Sorry I can't offer any other simple, living room friendly, acoustic suggestions. Ethan Winer, the founder of RealTRAPS, used to say that when it comes to acoustic treatment you can have low price, good effectiveness, attractive treatments—just pick 2. Attractive and low price is a lot easier to get than attractive and effective but there's no point for going for attractive if it's not going to be effective, no matter what the price and there's definitely no point in going for attractive that isn't effective when you're talking about the main room in your house, especially when that room looks as nice as yours does. I think wrecking a room visually tends to wreck your mood while you're in the room and that can reduce your listening pleasure more than many acoustic problems can. I much prefer listening in a room I enjoy being in than in a room I prefer not being in.

[Pim]

Damon / David.

First of all, WTF? Glass tables are in? I'm just about to throw one out. Well, if glass is hip again it's for sale; Bid high! 

Thanks for your replies. I can easily put another circuit in the new room. After all, I'm doing my own electrical work. 

I've learned a lot about good and bad rooms in the last few years. Both a mate and me have gone from reasonably good acoustics to really bad ones. The room I'm in now looks awesome but sounds the opposite. It's a shame how lots of us seem to have spent a small fortune on our systems only to have them sound sub optimal because of the rooms we have to put them in. Anyway, one day I'll get my room and I'll go all out on room treatment. If you ask me what's the most important for great sound I'll probably go something like this:

1. Room and treatment.
2. Speakers and placement.
3. Source material (recording / mastering)
4. Amplification
5. Source
6. Power

The reason I bought into Devialet is because I have a lot of bad source material and with the Devialet at least I have a choice to play with bass and treble a bit so maybe 3 and 4 can be switched around.

[David A]

Pim,

Glass tables are in? Maybe. I've learnt one thing from playing around with acoustic treatment in my room over the last 15-20 years and that is that whether or not something is bad/how bad it is depends to a degree on where it is in the room. The effect of a glass window, for example, varies depending on whether it's at a first reflection point or not. An exposed glass window surface will certainly add to the brightness of the room but it will add more if it's at a first reflection point. You can't change the location of the window but you can change the location of first reflection points by moving the speaker and/or the listening position in many cases so if you've got a normal size window you may be able to leave it uncovered and enjoy the scene by rearranging the speakers and the listening position but all bets are off on that if you've got a wall to wall, floor to ceiling window. That leaves 2 options. The obvious one is curtains but surprisingly you can minimise the effect of large areas of glass on side walls and the wall behind the speakers with horn speakers which are highly directional. I once heard a pair of Avant Grade Unos in a very small space with exposed glass side walls and a wall clad with aluminium sheets behind them and they sounded quite nice, not bright at all. I've been in another listening "room", an extremely large open plan space around the width of 3 normal rooms, with the listening area in the middle, uncovered 4 to 4.5 metre high glass across that whole width and then wrapping around a bit on either side, and a large open plan dining area behind and the system sounded great. The whole space had a huge volume and air is actually quite a reasonable absorber of high frequencies so long reflection paths which existed in that space controlled the high frequency reflections off the glass very well. I'm not saying that glass isn't a problem, it can be, but it is a problem that can be worked with and there are several ways of dealing with it extremely successfully. Glass tables can similarly be judiciously placed out of a first direction path or simply throw a table cloth or blanket over them when you're listening.

I'd leave source material out of your set of priorities, there's nothing we can do about that apart from choosing not to buy material with problems but we want to listen to music we like and sometimes w have to put up with substandard source material if the music is good enough. I wouldn't argue with the order of your other priorities but somewhere around source amplification, source and power I'd also add in vibration control. I would definitely put room and treatment, and speakers and placement, first as you have but I might reverse their order because speaker choice and placement can have an impact on how you deal with room problems. Some speaker choices are better for a given room than others so I think my first priority if I were starting with a totally blank slate would be to pick speakers which work well with the room they're going in and then go from there.

When it comes to physical acoustic treatment there's different approaches and it's important to consider the kind of result you want because not everyone is interested in the same things but there's one thing I've really come to appreciate: treatments that can be mounted on free standing stands and moved so that they can always be ideally placed. Treatments that are fixed to the wall lock you into one speaker placement and one listening position for best results and that can be a problem if you move the speakers or make changes in the room. With absorption there's also the fact that absorption works more effectively if there is an air space of 10-15 cm or so between the absorption and the wall behind it. That's a lot easier to arrange if the absorption panels can be mounted on stands but stand mounted panels tend not to be attractive. Stand mounted treatments are also better for dealing with glass at first reflection points however because you can place the stand in front of a window. The last thing you usually want to do is to physically fix an absorption or diffusion panel to the window.

Get the room/speakers/listening position set up well and you can make a huge improvement. Things like vibration control and power treatment make great icing on a cake but the cake is the main thing and the cake is the room and setup.