Sound quality - Roon RAAT vs Roon Air

[Saint0]

I just updated to Roon 1.8, and have been having audio dropout issues (streaming radio, Tidal and local library files). It starts around 5 to 10 mins into play, once it started it keeps repeating every few minutes, sometimes multiple dropouts within a song, which makes it unusable.

However, there's no dropout issues with Meridian M218 and Devialet AIR endpoints which are on the same network. It's strange since Devialet AIR works on the same device, which points to Roon 1.8 RAAT protocol issues with Devialet "Roon Ready" endpoint. Has anyone noticed the same problem?

What is your network configuration/setup? Ever since the last Devialet firmware, I have had zero dropouts using RAAT, regardless of file size, source (NUC/NAS or NUC/Qobuz) or format.
Everything in  my network is wired and in the same room as my main system. Everything is on a single Gigabit switch. My second system (home office) is 2 floors up and connected via Mesh wifi6. Also there zero dropouts even with DSD256 files. Both Roon and Devialet are sensitive to network issues, even if nothing else on your network indicates problems. Endless posts on the Roon support forum all end up being about network issues (Roon not liking a particular configuration or a particular piece of hardware in the LAN setup).
If at all possible, run a wired setup in your LAN and check for dropouts. If you still get them, try a different switch (nothing fancy - no need for so-called audiophile network switches, which do nothing anyway).

I had no issues with Roon RAAT since the last Devialet firmware update until I updated to Roon 1.8

Netgear Cable Modem (Cox Gigablast up to 1Gb/s)
Apple Airport Time Capsule (latest FW) to Peakedge SE26 24 port GigE Switch (main switch)
- Linksys 4 port GigE Switch to Nucleus+ (Roon Core), Devialet D250 PRO, Meridian 218  (all wired Ethernet)
- Netgear 16 port GigE Switch to  other network devices

[mdconnelly]

I was also plagued by dropouts using RAAT to my Expert Pro 440 via gigabit Ethernet. It continued even after the Devialet OS/firmware update last year although the frequency of the dropouts was much improved after the firmware update. This was using an i7 Win 10 PC running RoonServer. But using the 100mpbs switch eliminated the dropouts and sounded just as good as gigabit ethernet so I was content.

But then my PC started having issues so I eventually bought a NUC 8i7 and installed ROCK. I can’t explain why, but no more dropouts with RAAT via gigabit ethernet. None. Roon has been ROCK solid.

YMMV, but it made me wish I switched to ROCK on NUC years earlier. It has made the care and feeding of Roon so much easier. (Caveat: I do know of other NUC users that still have occasional dropouts and if you read the Roon forums, this issue is certainly not confined to Devialet owners).

Regarding AIR vs RAAT… I do hear a slight difference but not enough to have clear preference based on sound quality alone. I tend to primarily use RAAT because I’ll occasionally group playback with another Roon Ready endpoint in my home which I cannot do with AIR.

[Saint0]

I was also plagued by dropouts using RAAT to my Expert Pro 440 via gigabit Ethernet.  It continued even after the Devialet OS/firmware update last year although the frequency of the dropouts was much improved after the firmware update.  This was using an i7 Win 10 PC running RoonServer.  But using the 100mpbs switch eliminated the dropouts and sounded just as good as gigabit ethernet so I was content.

But then my PC started having issues so I eventually bought a NUC 8i7 and installed ROCK.  I can’t explain why, but no more dropouts with RAAT via gigabit ethernet.  None.  Roon has been ROCK solid.

YMMV, but it made me wish I switched to ROCK on NUC years earlier.  It has made the care and feeding of Roon so much easier.  (Caveat: I do know of other NUC users that still have occasional dropouts and if you read the Roon forums, this issue is certainly not confined to Devialet owners).

Regarding AIR vs RAAT… I do hear a slight difference but not enough to have clear preference based on sound quality alone.  I tend to primarily use RAAT because I’ll occasionally group playback with another Roon Ready endpoint in my home which I cannot do with AIR.

I'm glad switching to NUC 8i7 fixed the dropout issues. I'm using Roon's Nucleus+, which should work as well if not better than NUC, but it started to have RAAT dropouts after updating to Roon 1.8. Roon claims Devialet never fixed their network stack issues handling raw PCM from RAAT. Both Roon and Devialet advised using a 10/100 switch for the D250. It appears the Devialet network stack has problems handling gigabit ethernet.

I've also started to notice certain Tidal MQA tracks have repeatable subtle skips (or very short dropouts) with Devialet AIR, which Roon also unfolds to 96/24 PCM. I played the same tracks using the Meridian 218 endpoint to the D250 and no skips.

Gigabit Ethernet is a mature tech and ubiquitous, it's pretty disappointing that Devialet can't seem to have a solution for that.

[mdconnelly]

What drove me nuts is that quite a few Expert Pro/Roon users never had an issue with streaming via Roon RAAT over gigabit ethernet. To be honest, Roon support was of little help. It made me question everything about my network and Roon implementation. When I found the problem went away when switching to ROCK on a NUC, I was surprised and confused. Is ROCK a marginally more stable/efficient implementation than on Win 10? Who knows. Why would a 100mbps connection work better than gigabit? Who knows. But my suspicion is that Devialet still has room to improve their implementation of RAAT and that, at present, it is still causing issues with some users. On the other hand, I see quite a few Roon users with dropout/stuttering issues that are not using Devialet equipment. So again, who knows.

[David A]

I'm one of the people who never had an issue with streaming via Roon RAAT over gigabit ethernet, at least until I tried streaming anything in 192/24. The highest resolution file I had om NucleusPlus was 176.4/24 and that played without problems. I always streamed at native resolution and the highest resolution Tidal had was MQA which Roon decoded to 96/24. It wasn't until I used Roon to upconvert everything to 192/24 that I struck the problem, and I only did that to see if I could get the problem. For me the issue was very definitely the combination of RAAT, gigabit ethernet, and a 192/24 stream. 18 months ago I replaced the Cisco ethernet switch my Devialet and the Roon Nucleus Plus were connected to with an ETGERRegen with the 100 mbps port feeding the Devialet and the RAAT connection has been trouble free since then but then it was trouble free prior to that unless I was streaming 192/24 resolution files.

Why does a 100mbps connection work better than gigabit? From everything I've heard it does seem to come down to problems with how Devialet handle the network stack but there's still the questions related to the differences in experience that some of us have had. I seem to remember Roon stating at one time that they had offered to help Devialet fix the problem and a comment somewhere else that Devialet had declined assistance. I think the last firmware update helped some people but it didn't help all Devialet users. Devialet still has work to do and they seem to work particularly slowly on software problems that don't affect everyone. This doesn't affect everyone.

As for people without Devialet gear getting dropout/stuttering problems, I think the reason for that is obvious. Dropouts and stuttering aren't a problem. Well, they are to the listener but when it comes to what's going on they aren't a network problem, they're the symptom of a network problem and in that regard they're a bit like something like fever in humans. Fever isn't a disease, it's a symptom of a disease, and many different diseases can cause fever. You have to treat the disease to solve the problem successfully. With network issues there's more than one problem that can cause dropouts or stuttering, it's a symptom shared by many network problems and some of those network problems don't require a Devialet in the network chain to manifest themselves.

[Saint0]

I'm one of the people who never had an issue with streaming via Roon RAAT over gigabit ethernet, at least until I tried streaming anything in 192/24. The highest resolution file I had om NucleusPlus was 176.4/24 and that played without problems. I always streamed at native resolution and the highest resolution Tidal had was MQA which Roon decoded to 96/24. It wasn't until I used Roon to upconvert everything to 192/24 that I struck the problem, and I only did that to  see if I could get the problem. For me the issue was very definitely the combination of RAAT, gigabit ethernet, and a 192/24 stream. 18 months ago I replaced the Cisco ethernet switch my Devialet and the Roon Nucleus Plus were connected to with an ETGERRegen with the 100 mbps port feeding the Devialet and the RAAT connection has been trouble free since then but then it was trouble free prior to that unless I was streaming 192/24 resolution files.

Why does a 100mbps connection work better than gigabit? From everything I've heard it does seem to come down to problems with how Devialet handle the network stack but there's still the questions related to the differences in experience that some of us have had. I seem to remember Roon stating at one time that they had offered to help Devialet fix the problem and a comment somewhere else that Devialet had declined assistance. I think the last firmware update helped some people but it didn't help all Devialet users. Devialet still has work to do and they seem to work particularly slowly on software problems that don't affect everyone. This doesn't affect everyone.

As for people without Devialet gear getting dropout/stuttering problems, I think the reason for that is obvious. Dropouts and stuttering aren't a problem. Well, they are to the listener but when it comes to what's going on they aren't a network problem, they're the symptom of a network problem and in that regard they're a bit like something like fever in humans. Fever isn't a disease, it's a symptom of a disease, and many different diseases can cause fever. You have to treat the disease to solve the problem successfully. With network issues there's more than one problem that can cause dropouts or stuttering, it's a symptom shared by many network problems and some of those network problems don't require a Devialet in the network chain to manifest themselves.

Nice to know the ETGERRegen fixed the problem; however it's pretty pricy at $650 (USD). I wonder if a cheap 100M switch per Devialet and Roon's recommendation will do the same?

[thumb5]

...
Nice to know the ETGERRegen fixed the problem; however it's pretty pricy at $650 (USD). I wonder if a cheap 100M switch per Devialet and Roon's recommendation will do the same?

Yes, it should do (and I think people on this forum have already reported success doing just that).

[David A]

Nice to know the ETGERRegen fixed the problem; however it's pretty pricy at $650 (USD). I wonder if a cheap 100M switch per Devialet and Roon's recommendation will do the same?

I think you're looking at my post in the wrong way.

First, the ETHERRegen hasn't fixed the problem. The problem is a problem with Devialet's handling of ethernet input. The problem still exists today. The last firmware update, now nearly a year old now, improved things somewhat but still didn't fix the whole of the problem. Some people are still reporting the issue after that last update.

Using a switch to connect to the Devialet at 100 mbps doesn't fix the problem, it's an effective work around that manages to avoid the problem, just as using wifi with RAAT instead of ethernet also avoids the problem. Work arounds are great but they don't fix the problem, they just let you avoid triggering the problem and that's a great thing to do if there isn't a fix for the problem. 

If you want to use an ethernet connection, you just want an ethernet related workaround for this problem and you aren't interested in chasing an improvement in sound quality by going down the rabbit hole of audiophile switches, then definitely by a standard100 mbps switch. It should let you avoid the problem entirely, just as the ETHERRegen does, but normal 100 mbps switches and audiophile 100 mbps switches like the ETHERRegen don't solve the problem, they just avoid the problem. Solving the problem requires a firmware fix from Devialet and they don't seem to be in a hurry to fix the bug they introduced or even to roll out the last couple of features they originally promised for the CI board which were still listed as outstanding in the info sheet with the last firmware update a year of so ago. The problem lies in Devialet's handling of the incoming ethernet stream. Using a lower speed ethernet stream doesn't fix the problem, it just avoids triggering the problem which gives us a result we want but it's definitely not the ideal solution.

I didn't buy the ETHERRegen to avoid this problem. I was getting by quite fine prior to getting the ETHERRegen simply by not streaming any 24/192 resolution music to my Devialet because I didn't get the problem at lower resolutions but others were not so fortunate. If I had wanted to swap to a 100mbps switch in order to avoid this problem occurring then I would have bought a normal and much cheaper 100 mbps switch and I would have done so much earlier than I bought the ETHERRegen. Getting the workaround of a 100 mbps connection to the Devialet from the ETHERRegen was a free bonus for me, nice to have but not essential since I wasn't running into the problem as long as I avoided 24/192 streams.

[Delija]

@David A
So, you rather choose not to use 192/24 than to limit the connection to 100 Mbps?
I strongly disagree

With 100 Mbps connection everything works perfectly. You don't even need a switch if there is a way to limit connection on LAN port used for Devialet on router - just as I do on my Asus RT-AC66U.

[David A]

@David A
So, you rather choose not to use 192/24 than to limit the connection to 100 Mbps?
I strongly disagree

With 100 Mbps connection everything works perfectly. You don't even need a switch if there is a way to limit connection on LAN port used for Devialet on router - just as I do on my Asus RT-AC66U.

I think you also are looking at my response, and my original post, in the wrong way.

I have never said I chose not to use 192/24 rather than limit the connection to 100 mbps. What I originally said is "I was one of the lucky ones who never had an issue streaming with RAAT…" and that was because I didn't have any 192/24 source material and that I streamed at native resolution. I could even stream a 176.4/24 resolution album without problems using RAAT and a gigabit connection. I've always preferred streaming at native resolution and leaving all upsampling to my Devialet and I went back to doing that after trying the 192'24 upsampling experiment with Roon. I had no need to choose not to use 192/24 since I had no 192/24 source material on my server and none is available from Tidal which I was using back at that time. I did not choose not to use 192/24, I simply chose to continue streaming everything I had at native resolution over my gigabit connection and I never downsampled anything from 192/24 because I never needed to.

If you want to debate the virtues of upsampling everything to 192/24 before passing it to the Devialet rather than passing all content to it at native resolution then that's a different debate entirely. I tried comparing those options without any problems whatsoever when the only connection option we had was AIR prior to the Expert Pros becoming Roon Ready and I heard no difference so I have always deliberately chosen to stream at native resolution as the simpler option rather than upsampling prior to streaming to my Devialet. RAAT hasn't changed my preferences on that matter.

I also said that a 100 Mbps connection was an effective workaround, it "works perfectly" just as you said. If anyone having problems with source material at any resolution asked me whether I would tell them to downsample that content in preference to using a 100 mbps connection, then I would definitely tell them to use the 100 mbps connection. I don't think the connection speed has any effect on sound quality and downsampling the resolution of the source material would almost certainly have a detrimental effect. If I had any source material at 192/24 back when we first became able to use RAAT I would definitely have moved to a 100 mbps connection much quicker than I did but, as indicated above, I personally had absolutely no need to do so.