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Sound quality - Roon RAAT vs Roon Air
#41
(30-Sep-2021, 10:37)Delija Wrote: I find UPnP better than Roon AIR in exactly the same parameters - clarity and transparency.
It's not huge difference, of course. It's subtle, but pretty easy to identify in known tracks.

Have you tried UPnP?

No.
Room: Gik Acoustics | Vibration: Townshend pods | Power: Shunyata Omega XC + Everest + Sigma NR v2 + Sigma ground cables | Source: Mojo Audio DejaVu EVO linux server running Roon core (Raat) | Ethernet: Sonore Optical module + Melco S10P with dedicated LPS + Shunyata Omega Ethernet x 2| Synchronous: Mutec MC-3 + USB (Paul Hynes SR7T LPS) + Cybershaft OP21A (Shunyata Omega USB, AES/EBU, clock cables) | Dac/Pre/Amplification: Devialet D1000 Pro CI (Chord Sarum T RCA-RCA link) | Speakers: Chord Sarum T cables + Wilson Benesch Act One Evolution P1
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#42
It would be very nice to hear your opinion about UPnP and comparison with other sources.

I think it's pretty easy to install MinimServer on your media server - or some other UPnP server which has a version for Linux.
Devialet Expert 440 Pro | Dynaudio Confidence 50 | 2x SVS SB16-Ultra
Anthem MRX 720 | Dynaudio Excite X28 | Dynaudio Emit M20
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#43
I tried a little experiment this morning, I tried making REW measurements with Roon RAAT and then with Roon integrated AIR.

Not much in it from a pure measurement point of view, see below.

Although personally I would not dismiss the comments from those who hear a difference. I know from my own past experiences, such as when adding the Mutec MC3+USB, that you can get cleaner more accurate sounding bass, which subjectively may initially sound like "less" bass, but longer term listening reveals itself simply as better bass.

There are many reports that claim that low jitter results in subjectively cleaner bass. Maybe there is something like this going on between the RAAT and AIR protocols?

Of course, considering that the Devialet is buffering and responsible for the audio clock with both the AIR and RAAT protocols, it is difficult to think of a technical explanation for this, they should sound identical. 

Another one for the "bits are bits" debate.


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#44
There is one very easy way to say whether the bass is good.

When you listen to your favorite bass-heavy music pretty loud in the system with balanced bass (with the rest of the FR) - if you want to lower the volume because bass is somewhat "fatiguing" - it's not good. If you want more bass and want to hear it louder - it's good.
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#45
(03-Oct-2021, 12:47)Confused Wrote: […] 

Another one for the "bits are bits" debate.

As much as a “bits are bits” I believe it is also for the “We don’t only listen with our ears but also with our brain”. 

And whatever makes the experience more enjoyable for you is fair game as long as you can afford it. 

Jean-Marie
MacBook Air M2 -> RAAT/Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#46
@Confused
For this purpose it's ok - but to show valid FR, vertical scale in your graph should start at no lower than 40 dB. This way the FR appears to be much flatter than it really is.
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Anthem MRX 720 | Dynaudio Excite X28 | Dynaudio Emit M20
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#47
Having a high-end setup and and also quite treated room acoustics - it’s really astonishing that there is a noticeable difference between RAAT ans AIR. I wonder if the digital processing within the Devialet could be any different as AIR is the „native protocol“ and the processing might be optimized for it.
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#48
(29-Sep-2021, 08:05)David A Wrote:
(28-Sep-2021, 08:38)Saint0 Wrote:
I have a few issues with Roon's explanations:
1. The Roon Ready dropout is not related to bit rate, it occurred with low bit rate internet Radio streaming as well as local & Tidal CD or HiRes files.
2. Changing to 100Mb/s switch won't change the raw PCM bit rate.
3. If it's a generic Devialet Ethernet issue, it should affect AIR as well. AIR and ROON Ready just different protocol over Ethernet, but AIR works perfectly over Ethernet.

You're right, AIR and RAAT are different protocols and neither changes the PCM bit rate.

That doesn't mean they're the same. The PCM signal isn't what's streamed from Roon over ethernet. What's streamed is sequential fragments of the PSM signal bundled into packages with other things like extra code so the receiving device has the info required to reassemble the PCM stream in the right order, and code for an error correction system. In addition the receiving device, in our case our Devialet's, sends data back to Roon. That includes info required to tell Roon when to stream more data (the data is not streamed in real time as the music plays, it's streamed in bursts, the PCM stream is reassembled and fed into a buffer from where it's fed to the DAC at the correct speed for playback) and with RAAT the Devialet also sends back info about volume, tone control, and other settings like SAM which gets displayed by Roon in its signal path window but which aren't displayed for AIR because Devialet never built provision for that kind of info display into the AIR protocol.

One result of all of this is that RAAT uses more bandwidth to stream the same audio signal as AIR does. Back when the gigabit ethernet connection issue was under regular discussion here, someone posted test results showing how much bandwidth was used to stream the same audio signal via AIR and via RAAT. If I remember correctly the figures were something under 10 mbps for AIR and something a bit over 11 mbps for RAAT. Both streams utilise only a small percentage of the bandwidth available over a 100 mbps connection and a minuscule percentage of the bandwidth available over a 1000 mbps connection and neither should be a problem with either connection speed but the RAAT stream does present problems for the Devialet over a 1000 mbps connection while the AIR stream does not.
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It's a mistake to think of an ethernet stream as a simple stream of PCM audio like the stream sent over coaxial or optical digital connections. What is being streamed isn't an audio signal, it's a data signal which is contained in data packets which contain fragments of the PCM audio data plus other data required for data handling. AIR and RAAT are different protocols and they use different packaging arrangements. There's more non-PCM audio signal data contained in RAAT packets than in AIR packets because of the error correction code and other things which RAAT provides but AIR does not and that means that the RAAT data stream needs to be handled differently to the AIR data stream. Devialet hasn't yet got its handling of RAAT correct and it seems that what it has not yet got correct with RAAT isn't an issue for what needs to be done to handle an AIR data stream.

While the problem lies with Devialet's ethernet handling, it involves Devialet's handling of one data protocol, RAAT, but not a different protocol, AIR. Essentially it seems to be a protocol handling problem related to ethernet connections rather than an ethernet handling problem which affects all data sent via ethernet. Those 2 problems may sound similar but they aren't the same problem.

I have no RAAT dropout issues after updated to the latest Roon 1.8 (831), and I'm using GigE, 1000Mb/s Ethernet switch. The dropout issues is only with Roon 1.8 earlier versions. There's no dropouts with the previous Roon 1.7 either. It has nothing to do with Devialet or the Ethernet switch based on my observation.

I understand how Ethernet works, and I agree Roon's theory of PCM bit rate causing dropouts makes no sense.

Anyway, the good news is Roon 1.8 (831) fixed the dropout issues. I'll just switch to AIR or use my Meridian 218 endpoint if the next Roon update breaks it again.
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#49
“…no need for so-called audiophile network switches, which do nothing anyway).”

I have to kindly disagree with you on that.
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#50
Yes the EtherRegen very much makes a difference for example.
But still there is a difference between RAAT and AIR.
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