USB Regen from UpTone

[Axel]

I'm a regular reader of Mark Waldrep's blog.  Here is his take on the Regen:

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5150

Makes interesting reading!

Interesting indeed! Thanks for the link Axel
One good thing to say about Waldrep; he is honest. Other than that it's pure BS. Embarrassing for him and his studio that he can not hear a difference. Or maybe his equipment is 'perfect' so the Regen does not make a difference? Or the A/B box he uses masks any differences there might be..

If you read the second part of the report, Russ Stratton does hear an improvement in sound.  I know Mark Waldrep believes that "bits are bits" but if someone hears a difference in sound, then that is sure proof that the Regen works. 

I don't use USB I'm my system, but if I did, I'd surely give the Regen a go.

[AllenB]

Well, as someone who does now use a Regen, I can categorically say that it reduces noise and hash on the USB path, which is why I believe that even on an expensive USB cable, the effect is still noticed, as it is passing the noise along together with the actual data.

The ironic thing was that I was just about getting AIR ethernet to be pretty stable, along comes the Regen and AIR does not matter that much to me now. What I cannot work out is why USB with Regen on the Dev sounds tangibly better than AIR, the noise generated by the computer source with AIR should, in theory, be isolated from the DAC in the Dev. Isn't that the point of AIR?

I believe from reading around the REGEN that pretty much all Ethernet inputs have the same/similar PHY chip of USB inputs, so perhaps noise is generated there also, and perhaps if using wifi, the Dev still has to devote CPU to the task.  I certainly don't claim to know, just thinking aloud.

Previously I'd thought of selling my  D200 after my AIr issues -  its totally unusable and beyond irritating in my setup. Regardless of SQ I'm so much happier with USB simply because it sounds OK and the music just keeps on playing.  But within reason I'll try and improve the USB input as much as I can….

That seems quite plausible, and gives credence to what Uptone say about the Regen and it's purpose. These PHY chips are a source of noise outside of the actual data, and could explain why AIR is not as good as a USB input with Regen IMO.

I found with mine that you had to persist for a couple of days, initially you think that it has changed the music, and everything seems more relaxed and quieter, but eventually you realise that the hash has all but gone. Rather than an initial 'wow', you get a later 'ohh wow'

[ogs]

Well, as someone who does now use a Regen, I can categorically say that it reduces noise and hash on the USB path, which is why I believe that even on an expensive USB cable, the effect is still noticed, as it is passing the noise along together with the actual data.

The ironic thing was that I was just about getting AIR ethernet to be pretty stable, along comes the Regen and AIR does not matter that much to me now. What I cannot work out is why USB with Regen on the Dev sounds tangibly better than AIR, the noise generated by the computer source with AIR should, in theory, be isolated from the DAC in the Dev. Isn't that the point of AIR?

I believe from reading around the REGEN that pretty much all Ethernet inputs have the same/similar PHY chip of USB inputs, so perhaps noise is generated there also, and perhaps if using wifi, the Dev still has to devote CPU to the task.  I certainly don't claim to know, just thinking aloud.

Previously I'd thought of selling my  D200 after my AIr issues -  its totally unusable and beyond irritating in my setup. Regardless of SQ I'm so much happier with USB simply because it sounds OK and the music just keeps on playing.  But within reason I'll try and improve the USB input as much as I can….

That seems quite plausible, and gives credence to what Uptone say about the Regen and it's purpose. These PHY chips are a source of noise outside of the actual data, and could explain why AIR is not as good as a USB input with Regen IMO.

I found with mine that you had to persist for a couple of days, initially you think that it has changed the music, and everything seems more relaxed and quieter, but eventually you realise that the hash has all but gone. Rather than an initial 'wow', you get a later 'ohh wow'  

I stand by my my comment on Waldrep; he is honest. I may have been a bit hard on him as he has alloved Russ Stratton to post comments on his site. Stratton says he and his friend did hear differences - also blind. That does not surprise me as the difference with and without a Regen is quite marked in my setup.
Now we also have John Westlake's measurements to back up whar we hear..  http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showt...75&page=46 The measurements are linked in post 687

[Antoine]

Another review of both the Regen and Jitterbug. This time the Regen was also tested using a linear PSU.

http://www.audiostream.com/content/upton...-jitterbug

[ZincAlloy]

Hi - I've now had this in my system for 2 days.   Source is Squeezebox Touch with BOTW LPS, USB cable is a cheap (£50) Chord, can't remember the actual name.  Using a Mark Grant power cord to the Regen, purely because I had one lying around. Using the recommended connector, direct to Devialet.  

To me, it's not a "wow" improvement, but there's no doubt that it has tamed the metallic / sybillant edge that was present before, and the bass is leaner, and less bloomy - a good thing IMHO.  It's certainly easier to listen to for extended periods.  

All in all, for those of us who use an SBT and are (im)patiently waiting for our Dialogues to be supported by our Experts, it's a very worthwhile improvement.   It'll also be interesting to find out if it improves the Dialogue, once this is supported.  If it doesn't, you can always move it on.  

ATB, Ken

[Antoine]

The default SMPS PSU that came with the Regen was a dealbreaker for me in my system.

Here are some quotes of what I wrote on CA:

Same here Rocky, at least part of it. I hear more low level detail with the Regen Amber and improved dynamics however it all also feels a bit more clinical, bland/less colorful, perhaps sometimes even a little agressive now. Voices sound a bit less natural, less "magical musical", presentation is slightly less relaxed. A slight edge to voices and cymbals previously gone seems to be back again with the Regen in place.

After the installation of a 12V LPSU (BOTWS with SBooster module):

The magic seems fully back again here and more, goosebumps all over. This listening to the Regen with the 12V LPSU I mentioned. A loud, cheering and applauding audience sounds like that again instead of an annoying source of 'white noise'. Also the strain, slight edge in the highs is gone again. I'm listening louder then ever while enjoying it more than ever. Very happy again.
 
Conclusion: IMHO the Regen is great but it needs a really good quality power source, a better one than the supplied SMPS to shine! Can't wait to see with what kind of PSU add-on Alex and John come up with, I hope it can even beat the best LPSU!

Confirmed! Everyone still using that stock SMPS supply with their Regens: get rid of it! (and any and all others in your system!) 


http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showt...ost2689811

As expected the Regen switch mode power supply (SMPS) is a disaster area, I avoid SMPS PSU's because they are nothing but a huge bag of hurt and should not be allowed anywhere near a HiFi system... They can be designed for low noise, but then they become far more expensive and requires a skilled designer.

The SMPS PSU supplied with the ReGen tries to "obscure" its RF output noise by VERY crude spread spectrum in an effort to ease EMC tests. My measurements show the switching frequency hopping around between discrete "spot" frequencies - just so crude.

Forgive me, things like this make me so down as I work so very hard to design a "correct" product then I see devices like this selling... Apparently the Regen guys claim this is a low noise SMPS design - if true, then it only begs the question what Crxp is considered "normal"...

Regen PSU noise measured with a "nothing special" lab linear PSU - note the 8KHz related USB noise currents on the PSU rail.



I added 3 modifications to the Regen PCB to reduce the USB packet noise, otherwise the same as above with the linear PSU:-



Now the "standard" non-modified Regen PCB with its Switch Mode Power Supply:-



Note the massive "clumps" of spread spectrum SMPS noise!!! You really don't want these HF noise currents circulating around your HiFi system!

As above with SMPS but with the modifications to the Regen design to reduce the 8KHz USB related packet noise on the PCB, for the most part we are left with the rather nasty SMPS noise:-



Zoom FFT of the SMPS noise, here you can clearly see the discrete SMPS switching carrier "Bins" as it VERY crudely hops about in an effort to hide itself from the averaging peak sweep detector used during EMC testing. Spread spectrum works well if correctly implemented with a true random carrier - but not here where its clearly just hopping about between a few discrete spot frequencies.



IMO, "off the shelf" SMPS designs have no place in HiFi systems. I've read reports of owners using the SMPS reporting "Brightness" and that's a VERY typical sonic signature of unwanted RF currents being injected into the HiFi system.

This is not aimed at the ReGen specifically, just at "off the shelf" SMPS designs in general. Although I strongly suggest that the Regen should never have been provided with an SMPS as this PSU can have a greater negative impact on a systems performance then the original issues the Regen is trying to resolve.

[Hifi_swlon]

Interesting graphs - I'm amazed no-one's posted those graphs over at CA since Regen's inception.  It might be worth flagging this over there or to uptone - they seem pretty open to discussing the product.

Not having even heard mine yet, this doesn't seem like an ideal situation.  There are a few people that pop-up saying a LPS makes them sound better, but Uptone seem convinced that the SMPS is good.  Sadly I don't have an LPS to try when mine arrives, and I don't feel like spending another 500-1000 quid on one.  If the Regen needed an LPS, I think I'd rather just spend the money on a dedicated streamer hardware and hope that they have made the USB output the best it can be…

[edited to say - oh i see - it was from John Westlake's posting over at pfm]

[Antoine]

To put it in perspective a bit, here's what Alex C. wrote:

And with regards to the graphs of SMPS spread spectrum noise that Elberoth posted on this thread's first page, note how far down they are and how high in frequency. I won't defend the $12 SMPS we include with the REGEN (other than that this 7.5V/2.93A/22W model is better than the pile of others we tried in the range), and many people are using the REGEN with LPS units from modest to fancy (our own choke-filtered, dual-output, 5-7A JS-2 being one of them). But let's keep perspective here.

Also, a 'well enough' regulated linear PSU (anywhere from 7,5 to 12V) can be bought for a lot less than the 500-1000 quid you mentioned.

A popular example under Regen owners (for many of them at least until the Uptone PSU add-on arrives) is this one for example. http://www.ebay.com/itm/111706391166?_tr...EBIDX%3AIT

Or a UK link to the same type from multiple sellers: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R...wer+supply

This one should also do the trick: http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=...duct_id=64

[Hifi_swlon]

To put it in perspective a bit, here's what Alex C. wrote:

…..

Also, a 'well enough' regulated linear PSU (anywhere from 7,5 to 12V) can be bought for a lot less than the 500-1000 quid you mentioned.

A popular example under Regen owners (for many of them at least until the Uptone PSU add-on arrives) is this one for example. http://www.ebay.com/itm/111706391166?_tr...EBIDX%3AIT

Or a UK link to the same type from multiple sellers: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R...wer+supply

This one should also do the trick: http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=...duct_id=64

Interesting. Yes, all in perspective is hard for us non-electronics engineers and DAC designers to judge - so I'll judge with my ears. That is if Customs and/or the Post Office ever send the bl**dy thing on to me - it arrived in the UK a week ago! 4 days to get from California to the UK. 7+ days to get from Heathrow to my house (< 15 miles from Heathrow!)

And thanks for the LPS links Antoine, thats just what I was looking for (the Regen threads over at CA are a bit on the long side for my attention span)! I had only seen the JS-2, which would be expensive to get over here, and just assumed ebay type ones wouldn't be very good.

[AllenB]

All those graphs tell us is that SMPS are not very nice things to have (as Antoine has said) near a hi-fi system. But didn't someone also point out that the Devialet's own SMPS throws a lot of hash back into the mains. Can you hear this through your Devialet? Not really, one of the first things that struck me when I first got my 200 was how little 'background' noise there is.

One thing that I really notice between Regen 'in' and 'out' of my system is noise conveyed by the USB connection from my current MacMini source, even with the supplied Meanwell SMPS. It is a remarkable difference, not tiny small increments. No doubt a LPS will improve over SMPS, as far as the noise measured by those graphs, but as far as my ears tell me, this noise is not audible at the end of the Regen, what I hear is quite the reverse, less noise and hash via USB, which is the purpose of the Regen.