Why are HiFi entusiasts negative to Phantoms ?

[McChicken]

Hi,
I have finally sold of some of my HiFi gear to be able to buy a pair of silver Phantoms, I have now order them for the 45 day trial so I can do the judging myself.
Have been following Phantoms before they were released even got an early invite to buy from the first produktion batch, but I have not pulled the trigger before now, due to that I am a member of some Audio forums ( Audio Shark, Computer Audiophile, Aktive Hören (DE) .....) and I have to say that even though the Phantoms have been praised by some serious ( hopefully objective) people a lot of the enthusiast have been slamming the Phantoms, some even using the word crap.

I want the Phantoms as I have been into Active speakers for many years ( even though my high-end set was not) as it is great to get rid of all the "boxes and cables", but also to keep things digital all the way and use minimum of components as I run a music blog but as a former Professional Sound Engineer I know what tons of equipment in 19" racks can do to sound quality.

Yes, I 've heard that Devialet have demoed the Phantoms as single unit not in pairs and in environments that have been far from optimal.

My personal guess is that a "One Trick Pony" scares the crap out of the regular HiFi enthusiast as with Phantoms most topics will drop dead as there are no cables, filters, DAC, yada yada to talk about, and sometimes I think that HiFi entusiasts like to tinker with their equipment more than listening to what it actually should be about THE MUSIC.
I listened to +7000 song with 2930 Artist, totaled up to 1100 hours and that on Spotify only ( I know sound quality sucks but it's so convenient and a work tool for me, and I'm way to deep in it so Hi-res material from my NAS is seldomly played TBH )

Love to hear your take on why the HiFi enthusiast ( Including Devialet Expert owners) trash talk the Phantoms ?

[DelaneyB]

I agree, I think its about the lack of 'tinkering' in part.
I've a D250 which I'm very happy with, so not planning on getting a pair of phantoms, but I can see the value as a 2nd system. Small, unobtrusive active speakers, whats not to like?

[jonstatt]

I don't think it is the lack of tinkering at all. But in all fairness McChicken, it would have been better for you to have posted this AFTER you have already trialled your Phantoms. So then you can challenge some of the potentially misguided assertions from audiophiles.

I am an audiophile. My main set-up consists of Kef Reference 4.2 speakers, with Bryston power amplifiers. I also have a record collection and feel more comfortable with a direct analogue path for those. I am not into tinkering for tiny potential changes in sound, but I am someone who likes the ability to upgrade and change components from time to time, such as the DAC or the SACD player.

I did promise to post a thread comparing the Kef set-up with the Phantoms, and I will do this shortly. But let's just say there is nothing non-audiophile worthy about the Phantoms, but speaker placement is not just important, it is critical. Because the speakers lack a large cabinet, the effect the room plays seems to be amplified and this can cause not just subtle but radical changes in sound.

[michirishi]

I do not know why people tend to think like this. But to me I see some similarities with the way some people regard Apple products.
-sleek, modern design (will make some people think that because it only looks good, but seemingly also means that it could therefore not be of decent quality)
-Not very much possibilities to 'improve' (by using lots of €€ on things like speakercables and such).
-Expensive (at least it seems expensive, but in the end it's more than worth the retailprice because of the quality level. Apart from the resale value after a few years of usage).

After listening to a set of white Phantoms for about 10 months now, I do have some conclusions.
-there are better systems available regarding SOME aspects, but not all aspects at the same time. (some speakers have better detail, others have better treble.)
-detail, atmosphere are very, very good. Bass will outclass almost any speaker.
-it will be very hard to find better SQ for the same amount of money.
-my level of fun in listening to music has improved greatly with Phantom. It both has the convenience of Sonos and the quality of a €10.000+ set.

[McChicken]

speaker placement is not just important, it is critical. Because the speakers lack a large cabinet, the effect the room plays seems to be amplified and this can cause not just subtle but radical changes in sound.

Thanks, correct set-up is probably one reason to that some Audiophiles have been sand-bagging the Phantoms. I have to say that I have my personal doubts about how the Phantoms will sound using the Gecko wall mounts, I will for sure use floor stands

[Johnnydev]

speaker placement is not just important, it is critical. Because the speakers lack a large cabinet, the effect the room plays seems to be amplified and this can cause not just subtle but radical changes in sound.

Thanks, correct set-up is probably one reason to that some Audiophiles have been sand-bagging the Phantoms. I have to say that I have my personal doubts about how the Phantoms will sound using the Gecko wall mounts, I will for sure use floor stands

Try this:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64321.0

[sekriT]

I am not surprised that Phantoms are being criticized. If you goto a local shop, they can only demo Phantoms using Tidal or such. Sellers don't have patience to figure out how to connect dialog to their demo server. I told the seller I am going to test it before I pay $6000 for it and he agreed. I spent almost 3 weeks to be connect dialog to my server after spending more money on third party USB bridges and other stuff (not fun). But a hard core audiophile won't give a damn. Let's face it. Current functionality of Spark is not for audiophiles! If we cannot directly play our DSD files without downsampling, we have right to sandbag it. Phantoms are just like Apple products. It's sold to people who don't know much about music and they want a DAC, speaker and SAM technology all in one package, so they don't have to figure out things like PC users.

Alternatively, it is a good secondary unit for audiophiles. Say you have a 200 grant system in your basement but you want something similar in your upstairs office or bedroom.

As long as Devialet delays the firmware development of dialog they promised to play direct DLNA connectivity, phantoms will not be appreciated by high end buyers.

[McChicken]

a hard core audiophile won't give a damn.   If we cannot directly play our DSD files without downsampling, we have right to sandbag it.  Phantoms are just like Apple products. It's sold to people who don't know much about music and they want a DAC, speaker and SAM technology all in one package, so they don't have to figure out things like PC users.  

Alternatively, it is a good secondary unit for audiophiles.  Say you have a 200 grant system in your basement but you want something similar in your upstairs office or bedroom.  

Ohhh. Maybe my Audiophile category grouping was wrong when you mention $ 200.000 systems Maybe I will change back the topic subject to HiFi Enthusiasts instead of Audiohiles. What I'm talking about is people that have systems i.e for $ 10-20k not $ 200k

[Confused]

I would not agree that audiophiles are negative to Phantoms.  It is true that some audiophiles are negative to Phantoms, but not all.

Indeed, I have come across a few audiophiles that are negative about anything Devialet, with the "Expert" range sounding digital, lacking emotion etc.

The point is, I do not believe there has ever been an audio related product for which all "audiophiles" agree on.  Some people love valves, some hate valves, some love Naim, some hate Naim, etc. etc.  (insert any audio product of your choice)

Occasionally you might even find "audiophiles" with differing views as to the influence of cables.

The key thing is to get the system that best suits your taste, the features you need, budget, etc, and sounds good to your ears.  Once you are happy you have picked the best for yourself, stick on some favourite tunes, enjoy, and stuff the opinions of anyone else!

I am lucky enough to have some KEF Blades and I recall once reading some posts from someone who had listed to some Blades at a show and reported back that they were overpriced, overhyped rubbish.  The funny thing was, I went to a hifi show a few weeks after this, KEF were demoing Blades, and to be honest I thought they sounded very poor, based on the demo, no way would I get a pair.  Once back home from the show, I then had a listen to my own Blades - bliss!

The point is that people will write their options based on personal biases, preferences, and often based on poor demonstrations.   This will always be so.  Chuck on a favourite tune and forget about it!

[Xander]

High End audio does not exist... the Audiophiles like to juggle around with expensive gear and cables and defend their position (and why not), but the laws of physics (on gear and acoustics) will decide how the music will sound.... All 'one box' concepts are not audiophile because it limits the possibilities to 'tweak', so believers of tweaks are negative.

Anyone should buy what you think it's best and spend lot's on shiny stuff :-) as long as you can feed your family and your wife is ok with it, its all good for the economy :-)))

I did long way... spend way too much on everything..... now happy with the 400 / B&W and VPI TT....