upgrade is back

[Confused]

Hello,

can anybody say something about pricing for upgrading to 440pro/CI (here in Germany)?

Do also the vinyl-input benefits from the CI-Board?
Use my analog source nearly 80% and for the other 20% I use Roon over LAN from my audio-PC.
And toslink from TV/Bluray, but that is not used very often and not worth to discussed for soundquality.

So I am thinking what to do and will first wait for an official offer from Devialet per mail...

Hello,

maybe is missed the answer...


How much does the vinyl-input benefits from the Pro-upgrade and/or the CI-Board?

Here in Germany the upgrade-price for 400 -> 440Pro CI is 6000 € - the same as before without the special-offer per mail.

If this price of 6K-€ is fix - I will not do the upgrade and stay with the 400...

ATB, tom

Hello Tom,

I think your question got a little missed in all the excitement and bickering of the recent posts, so I will try to answer.  

If your primary method of using the amp is via vinyl, then obviously the CI board itself will be of very little interest or use to you.  That said, the CI equipped Pro is a better sounding amplifier, irrespective of which input is used.  So it is safe to assume that you will get some kind of sound quality improvement when playing vinyl.  How much of an improvement will depend a little on the rest of your system, how good your TT is, what speakers you are using etc.  I guess the big question is will the level of sound quality increase obtained be worth 6000 Euros to you, and I think no one can answer that other than yourself.  It is a lot of money that could arguably be used better elsewhere.  One other point to note, the phono stage is identical between the Pro and the Expert, so this is a bit of a disappointment for vinyl users.  Not that there is much wrong with the current phono stage, but certainly this eliminates one possible reason to upgrade.  I would point out that I am more of an occasional vinyl user these days, most of my listening is digital, so someone who is primarily a vinyl user and has gone Expert to Pro might be able to offer a little more insight.

[Elztalbiker]

Hey Tom,

I would be stay on 400.If your are using almost Phono it would be better some invest in your TT️


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[tom539]

I think your question got a little missed in all the excitement and bickering of the recent posts, so I will try to answer.  

If your primary method of using the amp is via vinyl, then obviously the CI board itself will be of very little interest or use to you.  That said, the CI equipped Pro is a better sounding amplifier, irrespective of which input is used.  So it is safe to assume that you will get some kind of sound quality improvement when playing vinyl.  How much of an improvement will depend a little on the rest of your system, how good your TT is, what speakers you are using etc.  I guess the big question is will the level of sound quality increase obtained be worth 6000 Euros to you, and I think no one can answer that other than yourself.  It is a lot of money that could arguably be used better elsewhere.  One other point to note, the phono stage is identical between the Pro and the Expert, so this is a bit of a disappointment for vinyl users.  Not that there is much wrong with the current phono stage, but certainly this eliminates one possible reason to upgrade.  I would point out that I am more of an occasional vinyl user these days, most of my listening is digital, so someone who is primarily a vinyl user and has gone Expert to Pro might be able to offer a little more insight.

Hello Confused,

thank you for the detailed answer.

I also think that the Pro version will raise the overall sound level - even if the phono part has remained unchanged. I have been using AIR since version 3.x (currently Roon-AIR) and have never had any problems and it runs very stable.

But I also think that the general increase in sound is not worth 6000€ to me personally.
For the money I can buy lots of (vinyl)-albums and several years of tidal or Qobuz subscriptions - so I will probably stay with the 400.

My setup is written in the signature (and pictures here), the only space for improvement is room-tuning - sometimes difficulty in a living-room...

ATB, tom

[tom539]

Hey Tom,

I would be stay on 400.If your are using almost Phono it would be better some invest in your TT️


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Hy Elztalbiker,

I already own the TT I always wanted. When I saw/heard it more than 6 years ago at the local dealer, I couldn't get it out of my head - and now it has been with me for about 1.5 years.

At that time they heard with 2x D-Premier and Magico-LS (I don't remember the exact model), among others "We get Request" by Oscar Peterson.

Now I have a very similar combination at home with speakers from TAD instead of Magico... 


ATB, tom

[Vivialet]

for the initial 4000€ (800 to 1000pro) the update was a bargain for me. Now it costs 8000€, not sure if I would still update now...
Pro CI is clearly better and maybe there will be other enhancements in the future, but this is a lot of money...

[Amelot75]

for the initial 4000€ (800 to 1000pro) the update was a bargain for me. Now it costs 8000€, not sure if I would still update now...
Pro CI is clearly better and maybe there will be other enhancements in the future, but this is a lot of money...

Does the upgrade include the CI board? I’m still with D800 & D400 and definitely the upgrade will stay as an option regarding my systems

[RebelMan]

By the way, it's interesting to read what a well-regarded amplifier designer says about how much power is needed to drive typical speakers to "normal" listening levels without distortion when playing music.  For example:

You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping.  More power is needed in larger rooms or if you like to play your music more loudly than most.

I reviewed the article but found nothing of which that was foreign to me.  It bears pointing out that the author was overly simplistic with some of his comments.  Since I have no desire to discuss circuit theory in this thread I will limit my response to the quote you provided and the inferences you are suggesting.

First of all speakers are not simply resistive loads.  They are complex impedance devices and their thirst for power is driven by variations of frequency and volume over time.  Since power is a product of BOTH voltage and current, clipping an amplifier can occur when EITHER one of these are in short supply.  In general, an amplifier that can output high levels of voltage but low levels of current will be weaker than an amplifier that can output low levels of voltage but high levels of current (proportionately speaking of course).  

For example, if Amplifier A can output 500 watts into an 8 ohm load and 500 watts into a 4 ohm load it will be weaker then Amplifier B that can output 250 watts into an 8 ohm load and 500 watts into a 4 ohm load.  Since impedance varies with time and the input signal, Amplifier B is better equipped (built) to follow the impedance curve of the speaker.   As the impedance of the speaker varies the output of Amplifier B will follow in proportion to the demands placed on it, we call this linear behavior.  Under the same circumstances, Amplifier A is less equipped to follow the impedance curve of the speaker.  In this case as the demand of the speaker varies the output of Amplifier A will still follow but not in proportion to the demands placed on it, we call this non-linear behavior.

Devialet amplifiers are built with stiff voltage rails and therefore are very linear designs.  They are quite capable of driving 2 ohm loads which covers the vast majority of loudspeakers people are likely to own.

For the author to say that that a 500 watt amplifier is necessary to drive a 90dB sensitive speaker (without clipping) and then exclude all the details about the setting from which he makes his conclusion is GROSSLY misleading.

[RebelMan]

To clarify: by "universal" I meant "applying to everyone".

Understood, but my comments do not engage anyone only the amplifiers under question.  The statements made are facts about the series not theories about the people using them.

There can be absolutely nothing to say about "sound quality" unless people are involved.  Otherwise, you're talking about objective measurements, be they of voltage, current, air pressure fluctuations, etc.

You are losing focus, Ian. 

Let me consisely reiterate ...

Each model of the Expert series produces the same sound quality.
Each model of the Expert Pro series produces the same sound quality.
The Expert Pro series may sound better than the Expert series but it is subtle at best.

The sound quality of EACH SERIES was not VOICED, it was cooked up in a lab using OBJECTIVE measurements only.

[thumb5]

By the way, it's interesting to read what a well-regarded amplifier designer says about how much power is needed to drive typical speakers to "normal" listening levels without distortion when playing music.  For example:

You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping.  More power is needed in larger rooms or if you like to play your music more loudly than most.

I reviewed the article but found nothing of which that was foreign to me.  It bears pointing out that the author was overly simplistic with some of his comments.  Since I have no desire to discuss circuit theory in this thread I will limit my response to the quote you provided and the inferences you are suggesting.

First of all speakers are not simply resistive loads.  They are complex impedance devices and their thirst for power is driven by variations of frequency and volume over time.  Since power is a product of BOTH voltage and current, clipping an amplifier can occur when EITHER one of these are in short supply.  In general, an amplifier that can output high levels of voltage but low levels of current will be weaker than an amplifier that can output low levels of voltage but high levels of current (proportionately speaking of course).  

For example, if Amplifier A can output 500 watts into an 8 ohm load and 500 watts into a 4 ohm load it will be weaker then Amplifier B that can output 250 watts into an 8 ohm load and 500 watts into a 4 ohm load.  Since impedance varies with time and the input signal, Amplifier B is better equipped (built) to follow the impedance curve of the speaker.   As the impedance of the speaker varies the output of Amplifier B will follow in proportion to the demands placed on it, we call this linear behavior.  Under the same circumstances, Amplifier A is less equipped to follow the impedance curve of the speaker.  In this case as the demand of the speaker varies the output of Amplifier A will still follow but not in proportion to the demands placed on it, we call this non-linear behavior.

Devialet amplifiers are built with stiff voltage rails and therefore are very linear designs.  They are quite capable of driving 2 ohm loads which covers the vast majority of loudspeakers people are likely to own.

For the author to say that that a 500 watt amplifier is necessary to drive a 90dB sensitive speaker (without clipping) and then exclude all the details about the setting from which he makes his conclusion is GROSSLY misleading.

The point about clipping and the surprisingly high power levels required to avoid it is fundamentally not about linearity.  Rather it's due to the difference between test signals (sinusoids) and music signals which typically have a high crest factor.  As the article points out, this can be observed quite easily by a simple experiment - and obviously Mr Sanders has done so - which leads to his conclusion which I quoted.

Anyway, that may be a moot point; I highlighted the article to point out that there are sound, objective reasons why more power can improve audio fidelity due to factors that are not obvious from a naive analysis.  Indeed Mathieu Pernot agrees, stating "infinite power is the ideal".  If you choose to disagree with him, and Mr Sanders, that's your perogative of course.

[thumb5]

Understood, but my comments do not engage anyone only the amplifiers under question.  The statements made are facts about the series not theories about the people using them.

There can be absolutely nothing to say about "sound quality" unless people are involved.  Otherwise, you're talking about objective measurements, be they of voltage, current, air pressure fluctuations, etc.

You are losing focus, Ian. 

Let me consisely reiterate ...

Each model of the Expert series produces the same sound quality.
Each model of the Expert Pro series produces the same sound quality.
The Expert Pro series may sound better than the Expert series but it is subtle at best.

The sound quality of EACH SERIES was not VOICED, it was cooked up in a lab using OBJECTIVE measurements only.

You can reiterate as much as you like, but you're still stating a subjective, personal opinion (about "sound quality" as opposed to objective data) that has no more validity than anyone else's opinion.

If you replaced the phrase "sound quality" in your statements above with "measurements" then we would be in agreement.