upgrade is back

[RebelMan]

I think it would be very instructive for both the sceptics and the believers to have available some sample files that were made with the different Devialet amps: the same music sample played through the different amps and DA converted with good quality from the speaker outputs. If all the resulting files turned out to be identical it would certainly be enlightening - and if they weren't, that would also be very interesting (and perhaps would drive even more people to upgrade upon listening to the differences).

Interesting theory.  Although it would be difficult to control.  Access to anechoic chambers is slight.

[Greg]

RebelMan’s main argument is fundamentally wrong. I have compared 120, 220 Pro C/I and 250 Pro C/I in my listening room, in every case using the same source and speakers. The amp changes were made and listenened to immediately. I and my friend could clearly and instantly identify an incremental improvement to sound as the change up through the amp models was made. Having a relatively small listening room, I was not expecting to detect a difference between the 220 and the 250 but it was clearly evident in terms of transparency, revelation of detail and smoothness of presentation. The result being my wallet is somewhat lighter having upgraded to the 250.

A few weeks ago I met and discussed this experience with Mathieu Pernot, Devialet’s Chief Engineer and principle designer. He stated that improved audio performance of their amps was a reflection on the quality of components used in construction. The higher the model in the hierarchy, the better the quality of components used, including heat sinks.

Disregarding subjective sound impressions for a moment, here is an objective example of how the sound improves in the higher grade models. Compare the phono stages of a 220 with a 250. The 250 is quieter than the 220. The noise floor is quieter because there is less phono roar, particularly noticeable with low output mc cartridges.

[ekal]

I think it would be very instructive for both the sceptics and the believers to have available some sample files that were made with the different Devialet amps: the same music sample played through the different amps and AD converted with good quality from the speaker outputs. If all the resulting files turned out to be identical it would certainly be enlightening - and if they weren't, that would also be very interesting (and perhaps would drive even more people to upgrade upon listening to the differences).

Interesting theory.  Although it would be difficult to control.  Access to anechoic chambers is slight.

Just to clarify - I meant taking the signal out of the amp's speaker terminals, so no speakers would even be needed in this experiment. Certainly Devialet could very easily do this in an hour if they wanted, they could even use some Devialet amp as the AD converter.

[thumb5]

...
With respect to this forum and the topic under review the argument is iron clad.  I did not speak in generalities.  My points were very specific and clear.

I did not say you spoke in generalities, and being specific and clear is of course not enough to be correct.  Your argument is invalid simply because you are making a universal statement about sound quality but in principle cannot have complete knowledge of sound quality experienced by anyone except yourself.

By the way, it's interesting to read what a well-regarded amplifier designer says about how much power is needed to drive typical speakers to "normal" listening levels without distortion when playing music.  For example:

You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping.  More power is needed in larger rooms or if you like to play your music more loudly than most.

[RebelMan]

RebelMan’s main argument is fundamentally wrong. I have compared 120, 220 Pro C/I and 250 Pro C/I in my listening room, in every case using the same source and speakers. The amp changes were made and listenened to immediately. I and my friend could clearly and instantly identify an incremental improvement to sound as the change up through the amp models was made. Having a relatively small listening room, I was not expecting to detect a difference between the 220 and the 250 but it was clearly evident in terms of transparency, revelation of detail and smoothness of presentation. The result being my wallet is somewhat lighter having upgraded to the 250.

A few weeks ago I met and discussed this experience with Mathieu Pernot, Devialet’s Chief Engineer and principle designer. He stated that improved audio performance of their amps was a reflection on the quality of components used in construction. The higher the model in the hierarchy, the better the quality of components used, including heat sinks.

Disregarding subjective sound impressions for a moment, here is an objective example of how the sound improves in the higher grade models. Compare the phono stages of a 220 with a 250. The 250 is quieter than the 220. The noise floor is quieter because there is less phono roar, particularly noticeable with low output mc cartridges.

Please elaborate on the conditions of your analysis.   For instance, how do you level match the amplifiers?  What sources did you use?  How were the samples administered?  What data did you collect?  Are you conclusions only subjective?

I am giving you some benefit of the doubt given the mix of Expert and Expert Pro's that were used.  You should reread my post though.

[Pim]

RebelMan's argument is fundamentally flawed, because sound quality is subjective and personal.  Enough said.

He says there's no difference. Subjective and personal don't come into the equation with that theory.

I myself am a skeptic when it comes to cables and re-clockers and that sort of stuff. Having said that, I have tried some but haven't put enough time into really trying to find to whether they work or not. That's why I don't comment on stuff like that. I have theories but because I have no personal experience I don't want to post them as fact.

I have no idea whether Rebelman has experience to back up his claims or not. That's a good question to ask but then again, even experiences are hard to judge by just reading about them. As I said in my post earlier, the differences between amps are there but if you put them in front of the wrong speakers in the wrong room it'll be hard to hear them.

[RebelMan]

I did not say you spoke in generalities, and being specific and clear is of course not enough to be correct.  Your argument is invalid simply because you are making a universal statement about sound quality but in principle cannot have complete knowledge of sound quality experienced by anyone except yourself.

Incorrect.  I am making a specific statement(s) about sound quality as it pertains to the Expert and Expert Pros.

By the way, it's interesting to read what a well-regarded amplifier designer says about how much power is needed to drive typical speakers to "normal" listening levels without distortion when playing music.  For example:

You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping.  More power is needed in larger rooms or if you like to play your music more loudly than most.

I will review it, thanks.

[thumb5]

I did not say you spoke in generalities, and being specific and clear is of course not enough to be correct.  Your argument is invalid simply because you are making a universal statement about sound quality but in principle cannot have complete knowledge of sound quality experienced by anyone except yourself.

Incorrect.  I am making a specific statement(s) about sound quality as it pertains to the Expert and Expert Pros.

To clarify: by "universal" I meant "applying to everyone".

[thumb5]

RebelMan's argument is fundamentally flawed, because sound quality is subjective and personal.  Enough said.

He says there's no difference. Subjective and personal don't come into the equation with that theory.

If the discussion is about sound quality, as opposed to measurements, then it is entirely subjective and personal!

[RebelMan]

I did not say you spoke in generalities, and being specific and clear is of course not enough to be correct.  Your argument is invalid simply because you are making a universal statement about sound quality but in principle cannot have complete knowledge of sound quality experienced by anyone except yourself.

Incorrect.  I am making a specific statement(s) about sound quality as it pertains to the Expert and Expert Pros.

To clarify: by "universal" I meant "applying to everyone".

Understood, but my comments do not engage anyone only the amplifiers under question.  The statements made are facts about the series not theories about the people using them.