A Confused streaming system - Mutec / SOtM Ultra

[baconbrain]

Could you explain the idea of a „leakage loop“ and how that could apply to your current setup?

Where did you see the phrase "leakage loop"? It's not anywhere on this page in @Confused's comments and it doesn't appear on Uptone Audio's page for the EtherRegen which instead makes reference to "blockage of all external leakage currents".

I can't recall seeing the phrase "leakage loop" anywhere in relation to the EtherRegen.

The term leakage loop is not specific to the EtherRegen, and I think Mr Bacon may have mentioned this because although I did not use the specific term, it was in fact what I was describing in terms of my SOtM clock board being both before the EtherRegen (clock signal to SOtM switch) and after the Ether Regen (it is in my sMS200Ultra "end point"), hence possibly creating a leakage loop.

Some links to posts from John Swenson might help, the first one explains my situation far better than I could, the rest are for reference:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic...nt-1007488

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic...ent-800481

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic...ent-865860

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic...ent-592269

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic...ent-668000

EDIT.  I notice that the first link is a response to a question from this forums very own, and very knowledgeable, @octaviars

Perfect, that explains it. Thanks for providing the references and Happy Holidays!

[octaviars]

First @Confused thanks for the kind words about me

It is easy to creat loops when lots of equipment is connected to each other. Different powercircuits, powersupplys that might share -0V, groundplanes that dont have the same potential and now the etherREGEN that needs a bit of planning not to disturb the isolation. But it might not affect anything so it is hard to say that this will do that and that will do this.

I know much of my planning of my own system is to seperate each part of it as I mainly uses streaming so focus is on that. The etherREGEN provide a solution to seperate my network part from the audio part.

After my questions to John Swenson I decided to use a LAN cable from etherREGEN to my dCS Network bridge that only have the shield connected at the dCS so that there was no possible way to create a loop between my network and audio equipment via the shield (a shield connection is often connected to -0V). My dCS is the only thing in my audio system that is grounded so it is natural to have the shield in the LAN cable connected at the reciever end hence the Network Bridge.

This is my system today. I owned a system with SOtM before but decided to loose the spagetti solution and just use the dCS.

   

Much of my LAN cables is from Ghent audio but as they just use regular Belden cables I decided to build the last piece from etherREGEN to dCS on my own with a bulk cable that a very well named producer uses and apply Telegärtners new MFP 8.1 connectors to it. As I wrote before the shield is not connected in the connector at the etherREGEN. 

   

   

This is my aproche to solve my system with different ways to isolate the seperate parts of both the network and audio part. I know there are many ways to do this but this is my way and to my ears it sounds really good. 

And last of all a Merry Christmas 

[Confused]

I has some free time this morning to try the EtherRegen with and without the Mutec REF10. This is not the easiest thing to A/B test, you need to power down the EtherRegen, then switch between either the internal or external reference clock, then power up again. Apparently it programmes itself on start up depending on which position the switch is in. To give the EtherRegen a fair chance of performing well with its internal clock, I set the it up this way and left it running overnight, so the internal clock would be up to full stability. I could then power the unit down, switch to external clock, connect the cable from the REF10 and restart. The REF10 itself has been powered up and running continuously for months, so no stability issues here.

I thought that there would probably be little to be gained by adding the REF10, the EtherRegen is supposed to have an excellent clock and has the advantage of having the clock on the board exactly where it is required. However, I was surprised, there was noticeable improvement, to my ears at least. With the REF10 the sound was cleaner, the highs more resolved and just a general sense of things being more lifelike and coherent. From about news year's eve onwards, I have been using my system with the REF10 feeding the EtherRegen and have been thinking just how good everything is sounding, now I think I know why.

Of course, the Mutec REF 10 is a £3.5k product, and I am not sure if I could recommend anyone buying a REF10 just for use with an EtherRegen, but for anyone who already has a REF10 (or similar) the fact that the EtherRegen has a 10MHz input allows you to get steller results for very little money. This pretty much sums up my position, I couldn't be happier with how things are sounding at the moment. And all this from an Ethernet switch, I can hardly believe myself I am writing this.

[bernardl]

I am new to this thread.

I am currently using a Mojo tuned Mac mini as a source connected with an audio grade Acoustic Review ethernet cable to a Netgear hub, then from the hub another acoustic review ethernet cable into the D250 Pro CI. The music is stored on an SSD connected to the Mac Mini by USB.

After years without changes to the system I had the chance to acquire new speakers and decided to re-open the topic of system optimization... :-)

I am looking at the source/networking aspect. I am thinking of adding an EtherREGEN. The most sensible location to do so is seems to me to be between the Mac mini (A side) and the Devialet (B side). Does this make sense and has someone tried this?

I see that some here are using a Mutec REF10 also. Is this connected to the EtherREGEN to increase the accuracy of its clock? I believe there is no way to drive the clock of the Devialet itself also with the Ref10 is there?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Confused]

@bernardl - First to say congratulations with running both the 250 Pro and one of Le Gouverneur's (@Guillaume 's) favourite speakers. A fine system I am sure!

I presume you have seen this thread?

https://devialetchat.com/Thread-Wilson-Benesch

I would say that this thread has over time more or less become my system thread. More specifically, it has detailed my personal quest to find a "front end" solution that both meets my needs for functionality, and also delivers a sound quality superior to AIR or Roon AIR. This is not an easy task at it turns out. The sound quality performance of AIR has improved over time, and improved with the latest Pro generation Experts. Anyway, I always welcome questions such as yours, my view is that audio forums such as this at their very best when members are sharing views and experiences, we all have something to offer and something to learn I think, and sharing can help us all.

In direct response to your first question, yes, the most sensible location to add an EtherRegen would be between the Mac mini (A side) and the Devialet (B side). Plus, some other forum members have tried this with Roon AIR. I have linked to one of @David A 's posts below for your reference, but this link is to a 50+ page thread, so lots to read there if you have time, including posts from people who report good results from other switches, and posts from those who are cynical about the benefit of Ethernet switches. This is a controversial area, and I think it is good to have the more cynical posts mixed in with the subjective positive posts, this keeps us all grounded and curious.

https://devialetchat.com/Thread-Audiophi...6#pid91326

I am using the EtherRegen with the Mutec REF10. My purely subjective opinion is that this seamed to offer an improvement over the EtherRegen alone. It is not quite that simple though, in my case I am not running AIR or Roon AIR, (or the CI Board RAAT) the Mutec REF10 is a very expensive device, and I am not sure that it would offer value for money just using it to provide the clock for the EhterRegen. For me, I might as well do this as I own the REF10 already. The area I found the REF10 to provide the most benefit to sound quality was providing the clock feed to the Mutec MC3+USB, in fact this is the key topic of this thread and is moving away from the Roon AIR approach. Indeed, if you are looking to improve the performance of AIR with a switch, it might be worth having a read of the AS review of the EtherRegen. I have provided a link to this below, and if you take everything written at face value, the reviewer is stating that the combination of the EtherRegen with the REF10 is roughly equivalent to the rival Melco S100, with the Melco perhaps edging ahead.

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/u...ison-r887/

Also, if you read all of the "Audiophile Grade" ethernet switch thread, you will find a few posts from @K4680 , who has reported very positively re the Melco S100. (or skip to page 37 of the thread I linked eerier in this post.)

One thing that occurs to me is that I never tied running Roon AIR direct via the REF10 clocked EtherRegen. What has happened in reality is that after very much tweaking and optimising I have simply become relaxed and happy with my system, and the desire to experiment has diminished. This is a good thing! In fact, I started this thread over two years ago, at first I thought (or at least hoped) it would be a case of adding some reasonably good kit, and then experiencing audiophile joy. It did not work out that way, with lots of concern about if the SOtM kit was right for me and my system. I can say that I did have some buyers remorse with respect to the SOtM kit, mixed with frustration that in many ways I thought the SOtM kit was excellent. In a way it was pure luck that this issue resolved itself, with the SOtM "Neo" upgrade, and later significant SOtM firmware changes, together these made a big difference to me. A curious tail, which still surprises me, but it does provide an example as to how hard it is to get everting right sometimes. But yes, now I am happy, a mixture of experimenting, and indeed good fortune that I happened to gel with a SOtM firmware change. Although many others have stated they prefer the later SOtM firmware updates, hard to believe this makes a difference, but it did for me. After all of this, I think the REF10 clocked EtherRegen just added that little bit of "icing on the cake", as I described earlier in this thread.

So I would conclude that there are very many ways of approaching this issue. The REF10 is a fine device, but to use it just to provide the reference clock for a switch seams to be overkill to me, and certainly not a value for money approach. Consider that my REF10 now runs four devices, and the last of these runs S/PDIF / AES/EBU to the Devialet, where the quality of the clock does, in theory at least, matter. In a way this answers you last question, no you cannot use a Mutec REF10 to drive the clock of the Devialet itself (not without serious internal modification of a Devialet at least) , but using the REF10 directly upstream of the AES/EBU input is probably about as close as you can get to this. I emphasise that this is in theory, because none of us know for sure exactly how a Devialet deals with the incoming S/PDIF clock signal. All I can say is that for my system and my ears, feeding the Devialet with a decent quality signal via AES/EBU delivers the results I prefer. But as I said above, one thing that occurs to me is that I never tied running Roon AIR direct (or CI RAAT) via the REF10 clocked EtherRegen, maybe I should try this just to be sure that it does not match or trounce the rest of my overly complicated front end, you never know!

Anyway, lots to think about here, and lots to read. If you have any follow up questions I am always happy to help, as are others I am sure, both here and in the "Audiophile Grade" switch thread. Also, good luck. It is always very hard to say how well any of this stuff will work in your own system, but it is great when you get it right and you try something yourself that actually works for you.

[David A]

I am new to this thread.

I am currently using a Mojo tuned Mac mini as a source connected with an audio grade Acoustic Review ethernet cable to a Netgear hub, then from the hub another acoustic review ethernet cable into the D250 Pro CI. The music is stored on an SSD connected to the Mac Mini by USB.

After years without changes to the system I had the chance to acquire new speakers and decided to re-open the topic of system optimization... :-)

I am looking at the source/networking aspect. I am thinking of adding an EtherREGEN. The most sensible location to do so is seems to me to be between the Mac mini (A side) and the Devialet (B side). Does this make sense and has someone tried this?

I see that some here are using a Mutec REF10 also. Is this connected to the EtherREGEN to increase the accuracy of its clock? I believe there is no way to drive the clock of the Devialet itself also with the Ref10 is there?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

You would need to connect both your Mac Mini and your Netgear hub to the A side of the EtherREGEN and the D250 to the B side. That's basically what I'm doing in my system except that I'm using a Roon Nucleus+ server with internal SSD for my music source whee you're using a Mac Mini. 

When I read your post, my impression of what you wanted to do was to replace the hub with the EtherREGEN and you can do that, but then your Mac Mini is no longer connected to the internet, just connected to the D250 (I'm assuming your Mac Mini only has 1 ethernet port because the Mac Mini I use as my desktop computer only has 1 ethernet port). By connecting both the Mac Mini and the hub to the A side and the D250 to the B side, you provide an internet connection to the Mac Mini and a network connection to the D250. Only traffic intended for the D250 will be directed to it by the EtherREGEN, other traffic to/from the Mac Mini will go to the Netgear hub for routing elsewhere.

I can't comment on the use of the Ref10 with the EtherREGEN since I've never used one. @Confused has provided advice on that. What I can say is that I would expect that adding the EtherREGEN as I've described above will deliver an improvement in sound quality for you but improvements in sound quality are subjective and you are going to have to try it for yourself if you want to know for certain, and if you want to know whether any improvement it delivers provides value for money. I'm very happy with the result I'm getting but YMMV as the saying goes. Uptone Audio do allow returns if you aren't satisfied.

[bernardl]

Thanks a lot Confused and David for having taken the time to write such a detailed and thorough answer. This is really much appreciated. Thanks also for pointing me to the WB thread in which I have just posted a comment about the One Evolution that I find truly outstanding.

Yes, you are correct about network connection. That's how I would have to configure it with the current Mac Mini. But I am in fact considering at the same time to replace my Mac Mini by a Mojo Deja Vu V2 (about to be released) with an upgraded ethernet card with 2 ports. I was thinking of connecting one to the Netgear router (it's also feeding an Apple TV, my TV itself, a PS4 and a Sony Bluray 4K player) and the other one to the EtherREGEN.

Continuing my investigation I have come accross the new Melco S100 (a Japanese product that will cost "only" 1300 Euros in Japan when it ships later April) and I am now thinking about that option too that would enable me to replace the Netgear and just have one one single switch instead of having 2. System simplication is one of the reasons that took me to the Devialet in the first place and is now getting me interested in the Mojo Deja vu since the power supply is internal and my external USB drive could be replaced by an internal PCIe SSD without any cable. 3 less boxes (USB drive, its PSU and Mac mini external PSU) and 2 cables less. I would just have to use a single ethernet port on the Deja vu in this case.

The EtherREGEN would increase the complexity while the Melco wouldn't. Obviously it's more expensive, but as much here as in Japan and it removes the dangerous temptation of adding a Ref10 at a later stage... :-)

Anyway, thanks again for your super valuable inputs! :-)

Best regards,
Bernard

[David A]

I'm missing something here. The Melco S100 is a switch just like the EtherREGEN but with 8 ethernet ports and 2 SFP optical module ports instead of the EtherREGEN's 5 ethernet ports and 1 SFP port. Just what is your "Netgear hub"? Is it a router? If so, it provides functions that the S100 and the EtherREGEN don't, for example it is probably providing DHCP addresses for all of your connected devices which is a function a switch does not provide, and if you happen to need those functions then you can't simply replace the Netgear hub with the Melco, or with the EtherREGEN.

Given that the Melco and the EtherREGEN are both just switches both will have exactly the same impact on network complexity as each other unless you need more connections than the EtherREGEN provides. If your current Netgear hub is just performing switching duties you can replace it with either of the Melco or the EtherREGEN. If the Netgear hub is also your router then you can't replace it with either the Melco or the EtherREGEN because neither can function as a router, both provide switching functions only.

[bernardl]

I'm missing something here. The Melco S100 is a switch just like the EtherREGEN but with 8 ethernet ports and 2 SFP optical module ports instead of the EtherREGEN's 5 ethernet ports and 1 SFP port. Just what is your "Netgear hub"? Is it a router? If so, it provides functions that the S100 and the EtherREGEN don't, for example it is probably providing DHCP addresses for all of your connected devices which is a function a switch does not provide, and if you happen to need those functions then you can't simply replace the Netgear hub with the Melco, or with the EtherREGEN.

Given that the Melco and the EtherREGEN are both just switches both will have exactly the same impact on network complexity as each other unless you need more connections than the EtherREGEN provides. If your current Netgear hub is just performing switching duties you can replace it with either of the Melco or the EtherREGEN. If the Netgear hub is also your router then you can't replace it with either the Melco or the EtherREGEN because neither can function as a router, both provide switching functions only.

Hi David,

You are right, I was not accurate enough. It's an unmanaged hub that I use as a switch.

I have also a managed Netgear 10Gbe hub that's doing the hard work for the house.

So yes, the problem with the EtherREGEN is that I would be missing one network port.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Confused]

This thread started with the intention of sharing the experience of the Mutec and SOtM kit I was using with a Devialet. I think over time it has drifted a little towards being my system thread, which is something I have found very useful. If nothing else, I have found it interesting to refer back to this thread as it serves to document the changes to the system, past observations and the journey over time. There have been some good contributions from others too.

Anyway, it occurs to me that I have not posted anything of note here since January 2020. A bit like many things in the world, this thread kind of stopped in early 2020.

So did the tweaking of the system stop in 2020? Well, it did slow down, but there were some changes in 2020, and in 2021. So I plan to add one or two posts in order to fill in the gaps and get this thread up to date.

This takes us back to February 2020, when I actually went to visit the Bristol Hi-Fi show, yes a real show, with lots of real people there. The Bristol show is not too far from where I live, and I have visited many times, but looking back over the last year or so it seems very strange that I actually went to a hifi show in 2020. Of course, this was February, by March things were very different.

It is fun to visit the show and just have a look around and a listen to lots of systems. I was also keen the visit the GIK stand, I had a few questions I wanted to ask and I wanted to look at the various room treatment options that they had on display. I also wanted to look at hifi racks, knowing that there were a number of manufacturers displaying racks, as well as the various racks put into service in the demo rooms.

I think I have mentioned in earlier posts that I had made some changes to the layout of the room and the layout and position of my rack. I had come up with a rack layout that worked, but this was cobbled together using two old Optimum racks, cut down and placed side by side. The layout worked, but it was a messy and awkward looking end result. Looking at the various racks on display at the show, the one I liked best was made by Hifi Racks (imaginative name for a hifi rack company), specifically the Hifi Racks Podium XL. I had a quick chat with the staff and was given a brochure. One nice point about the Hifi Racks racks is that they can be custom made to order, with each and every dimension customer specified.

I also had a chat with the GIK guys, this was good. It was also great to actually look at the GIK products. I had looked at a few products on line, and selected one or two that I thought looked OK, but seeing the products for real they looed very different and I soon changed my mind about what I liked the look of. I guess many of us are getting used to buying almost everything on line, but sometimes there is no substitute for actually seeing something for real. If I had happened to buy something based purely on what I had seen on GIK's website it might have been a mistake, but looking at the products for real allows much better and more informed choices to be made.

One other aspect of the Bristol show is that there is a show "competition" as they call it, which is basically a free prize draw. This is organised by What Hi-Fi. Basically you fill in a little card, add your email address, stick the card in a box and hope for the best. I think What Hi-Fi do this as a way of harvesting email addresses, but as they first captured my email address maybe 12 years ago, each time I visit the show I am happy to fill in the little card and give it to them again.

So that was February 2020. Then came March, the world descended into chaos, everything changed in April, then in May I received an email. This email was from What Hi-Fi, I had won a prize in the Bristol Show competition! There were a whole range of individual prizes, speakers, headphone amps, sound bars, and so on. So what was my prize? It was a Hifi Racks Ommion 8 stand. Interesting, and what a coincidence, and slightly annoying. The stand I had won was from the company whose racks I liked very much, but it was completely the wrong model, size and design. Oh well...  Anyway, I was given a contact at Hifi racks to ring up and arrange delivery of my prize. I asked them if the rack was actually built and if was there any chance of changing it to another model. A simple answer, the rack was not built, they custom build everything to customer specification, I could select and specify anything I wanted from their range, and simply pay any additional cost.

So I then looked at their website, carefully measured everything, thought about the various options and finishes etc etc. I specified my perfect rack and ordered. The funny thing here is that I had won a prize, but then ended up paying well over £1200 to the company offering the prize. Anyway, the rack turned up in August, I assembled the thing, and being the engineer that I am I started measuring it, was it exactly as I had specified? Yes it was, 100% perfect to the millimetre.

I am very pleased with the rack, the quality is good, it is very well built. The veneer is a little funky in places, some sections contrast to others, I suspect this might annoy some perfectionist types but I rather like it, I guess it stops it from looking like a generic mass produced item and makes it look more hand crafted, plus the overall finish is superb. That said, you hardly notice this one way or the other once it has lots of hifi kit on it. They were also a great company to deal with, good old fashioned personal service type stuff. Lets put it this way, if I ever need a hifi rack, TV stand or similar in the future, I would definitely do business with them again.

The rack I bought is a bit like this one, although I added some cut-outs for cables and a few other bits:

https://www.hifiracks.co.uk/collections/...odium-xl-v

Note per the link above that you can order any size of shelf you want, any height, any number of shelves and so on. The price does seem to creep up though, as you add everything you might desire.

So that takes me to August 2020, slowly catching up. More later!