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BiWire Jumpers on biwireable speakers.
#21
I've been thinking about this connection method a bit more and I'm inclined to accept @BoyScout 's report that it makes a difference.

Judging claims on the basis of reports like this is difficult but dismissing claims without listening for oneself is simply unscientific. So, what things might predispose me to accept @BoyScout 's report , at least provisionally, given that I can't remember any other listening reports? Basically 3 things:

1- this connection method has been around for a long time, I can't remember when I first heard it advocated. Snake oil fads tend to stick around for a while but disappear over time. Persistence over time adds a bit of credibility for me.

2- snake oil claims tend not to come with qualifications. They tend to come with claims, or intimations, that they work for everyone, in every system. Look at the diagram. It gives 2 methods of connection and it says to use the normal method for 3 way speakers and panel hybrids. Those speakers account for a large proportion of the speakers with BiWire terminals, probably more than half. The "suspect" method is being recommended for 2 way speakers only, probably the smallest part of the market. That's not the standard marketing strategy for snake oil.

3- snake oil is marketed for profit. Where's the profit in this? Anyone with 2 way speakers which can be bewared can connect a single wiring set of cables to their speakers this way by simply walking around to the back of their speakers and changing one of the connection points on each speaker. Where's the profit for Audioquest in that? They don't make any money out of it when they sell their cables, and anyone using some other manufacturer's cables can do it with their cables. This does not sell anything. Snake oil is only useful for a manufacturer if it sells.

So, we've got something that has stuck around for years, that doesn't cost anyone any money at all but just a few seconds work behind each speaker and can just as easily be reversed if the owner doesn't hear a difference or hears a difference and doesn't like it, and it's being presented as an option that is beneficial in only some cases, not all cases. That's not the way you see snake oil being marketed.

So yes, I'm prepared to give this one the benefit of the doubt until I either see a hard proof that it doesn't work or I get a chance to listen to it for myself somewhere and decide it doesn't work based on my own experience.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#22
@BoyScout: are you using jumper cables that are the same make as your speaker cables? If not, then it may explain the differences that you are hearing. I wonder whether you are hearing a difference because your speaker cables are giving you a good direct connection to whichever terminals you are using and the jumpers are giving an inferior connection to the other terminals.
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South Coast England
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#23
(01-Aug-2020, 10:45)Axel Wrote: @BoyScout: are you using jumper cables that are the same make as your speaker cables? If not, then it may explain the differences that you are hearing. I wonder whether you are hearing a difference because your speaker cables are giving you a good direct connection to whichever terminals you are using and the jumpers are giving an inferior connection to the other terminals.

Humm... i don´t think so, but maybe you´re partially right, Axel.
In fact, my cables (blacksixteen) are theorecally from a lower level compared with the jumpers (Nordost).
And they´re the same in both ttpe of connections.
I´m not a technically enough informed to justify the effect, but what´s strange for me is the predominance of bass when i´m feeding the highs in a more direct way with the red wire..
Innuos ZenMini, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#24
Surely Occam's razor says that expectation bias is the most likely explanation for any perceived differences in sound quality. This would also explain why this advice about bi-wiring has become accepted folklore despite (in all likelihood) having no objective effect. Unless anyone can point to a controlled study where the potential effects of bias are eliminated but a difference is still perceived, of course.
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#25
I've let my reply go for a few days to try and come up with a way to explain how it is impossible to cause any difference, let alone improvement.

Just like Corona virus deniers, you're a tough bunch but I'll have a goBlush.  Let's do an experiment.

Take some reasonably good quality 75 Ohm coax cable. Get one of those cheap angled plastic capped coax connectors and connect your TV antenna and another coax cable about 1.5m long to it. Both cores under the centre screw and the screens under the clamp. You could try this with RG6, which is great quality, but they're pretty thick so a lesser but reasonable quality cable will do. Now put another connector on the end of the 1.5m cable.

So now we have a loop similar to the + connection in the speaker terminal example. Two connectors, one of them looped, thus a little longer signal path.

Here's a bit of theory you want to keep in mind before doing this experiment; The higher the frequency, the larger the loss of signal in cable. TV reception runs into the MegaHertz, audio into the kiloHertz. So in this experiment we're looking at a ratio of at least 1000:1 for the TV signal to be worse off than the audio signal. On top of that the current and Voltage of the TV signal is much smaller so small changes will show a larger effect. And on top of that we've made the coax cable about 5 times longer than the speaker cable loop.

So I think we can all agree the TV signal has a significant disadvantage to the audio signal.

Now the experiment. You've probably guessed it by now. Connect two TV's up to the two connectors you have in this loop. Check the picture quality. Now reverse the loop between the two TV's and check again. You will find there's no discernible difference in picture quality between the two. It's possible for there to be a difference. You could start with signal that's a bit low in quality to begin with and then the looped end will show a lesser quality.

In the above example it's possible to calculate a loss in signal strength too but, unless there's a problem with the signal in the first place, it will be impossible to notice that drop in signal by looking at the TV's. It's theoretical at best, negligent in practice.

So here we have a loop that has many disadvantages over the audio loop discussed and it shows minimal to no quality difference. None whatsoever if the signal is of good quality (Like the signal from our amplifiers is). 

Now imagine this non existing difference and divide it by 1000, probably more likely 10,000. Now you have some idea of how small a difference we're talking about in audio. 

So, with this experiment in mind, is there still anyone out there who genuinely believes it's possible to create a difference in sound by changing where the loop connects?

So why do people think they do hear a difference? 

The answer to that is the answer to why there are more snake oil products around in the audio industry than there are anywhere else. Dietary supplements might come close. It is because when it comes to audio our brains are easily fooled. 

There's a thread on Stereonet about why on some days you can really enjoy your system and on some days it just doesn't sound right. The conclusions are many; difference in power quality, less outside noise late at night etc. 

But there's also the personal reasons. Mood is one of them. 

That's a big one! 

That means we can 'hear' differently depending on how we feel. So when we feel positively towards a change it's possible for our brains to 'hear' a positive change and if we think negatively we can 'hear' a negative change. On top of that there's the very likely possibility your ears won't be in the exact same spot before and after making a change and on top of that there's our inability to remember audio quality, a very well known phenomenon.

So here we have it. My best (yet) explanation of why changing the direction of a loop doesn't make one iota of a difference in the sound coming from your speakers. If you hear a difference, it's in your head. There's nothing wrong with that. After all, this hobby is about fooling us in the first place; we fool ourselves we can hear a singer right there in the middle in front of us even though we know there's just a couple of speakers on the left and right. We ignore that fact because being fooled feels good. 

Keep fooling yourselves. Just know you're being fooled and all will be good.
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#26
(01-Aug-2020, 23:58)Pim Wrote: But there's also the personal reasons. Mood is one of them. 

That's a big one! 

That means we can 'hear' differently depending on how we feel.
That´s why!
I wondered how it was possible to notice a difference between those two types of connection, and here´s the reason: my mood changed every time I got up to change the terminals.
Much more enlightened now ... and relieved.
Innuos ZenMini, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#27
(01-Aug-2020, 23:58)Pim Wrote: I've let my reply go for a few days to try and come up with a way to explain how it is impossible to cause any difference, let alone improvement.

Just like Corona virus deniers, you're a tough bunch but I'll have a goBlush.  Let's do an experiment.

Take some reasonably good quality 75 Ohm coax cable. Get one of those cheap angled plastic capped coax connectors and connect your TV antenna and another coax cable about 1.5m long to it. Both cores under the centre screw and the screens under the clamp. You could try this with RG6, which is great quality, but they're pretty thick so a lesser but reasonable quality cable will do. Now put another connector on the end of the 1.5m cable.…

Interesting thought experiment but all the talk about the difference in signal strength is mistaken. Here in Australia we have digital TV broadcasting. The signal is digital all the way to the TV regardless of which connection you use and the difference in digital signal strength will be irrelevant.

With the speaker cable issue under discussion we're talking about cables carrying an analog signal.

If you want to come up with an experiment designed as a comparison it really needs to be an experiment involving an analog signal, not one involving a digital signal.

The rule of thumb with all comparison tests is to change only one variable. This experiement changes the bandwidth of the signal and also the nature of the signal. That's 2 variables and if there is a difference we have no way of telling which variable is responsible for the difference. That's why we need a comparison that only changes one variable.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#28
(02-Aug-2020, 02:17)David A Wrote:
(01-Aug-2020, 23:58)Pim Wrote: I've let my reply go for a few days to try and come up with a way to explain how it is impossible to cause any difference, let alone improvement.

Just like Corona virus deniers, you're a tough bunch but I'll have a goBlush.  Let's do an experiment.

Take some reasonably good quality 75 Ohm coax cable. Get one of those cheap angled plastic capped coax connectors and connect your TV antenna and another coax cable about 1.5m long to it. Both cores under the centre screw and the screens under the clamp. You could try this with RG6, which is great quality, but they're pretty thick so a lesser but reasonable quality cable will do. Now put another connector on the end of the 1.5m cable.…

Interesting thought experiment but all the talk about the difference in signal strength is mistaken. Here in Australia we have digital TV broadcasting. The signal is digital all the way to the TV regardless of which connection you use and the difference in digital signal strength will be irrelevant.

With the speaker cable issue under discussion we're talking about cables carrying an analog signal.

If you want to come up with an experiment designed as a comparison it really needs to be an experiment involving an analog signal, not one involving a digital signal.

The rule of thumb with all comparison tests is to change only one variable. This experiement changes the bandwidth of the signal and also the nature of the signal. That's 2 variables and if there is a difference we have no way of telling which variable is responsible for the difference. That's why we need a comparison that only changes one variable.

I actually installed antennas in the 'good old days' of analog David. I also used to do exactly what I wrote in the experiment but with more length on the 'loop' cable, usually for a bedroom TV. The second cable would have to be about 15 to 20m long before any issues were seen with reasonably good reception. Only if the signal was a bit so-so, just connecting up two cables would be an issue and an amplifier would be needed. If you think about how short a speaker cable is, how short the loop is, how strong the 'signal' and how low the frequency of audio compared to TV, I think this shows pretty clearly that in audio this sort of thing is negligible.
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#29
(02-Aug-2020, 01:37)BoyScout Wrote:
(01-Aug-2020, 23:58)Pim Wrote: But there's also the personal reasons. Mood is one of them. 

That's a big one! 

That means we can 'hear' differently depending on how we feel.
That´s why!
I wondered how it was possible to notice a difference between those two types of connection, and here´s the reason: my mood changed every time I got up to change the terminals.
Much more enlightened now ... and relieved.

That’s exactly what ABX and other double blind tests are for: eliminating the biases brought by our brain, mood and other things. 

Unfortunately, doing one in this case would require a electric switching box to move quickly between the two configurations. 

So I’m definitely in the camp of @Pim and others who say that the way you connect does not make any difference. 

But on the other hand, we listen more with our brain and mood than ears, so if one way pleases you more than the other, go for it. This is a easy and cheap way to be happy, even if it is just in our brain. 

Jean-Marie
MacBookPro -> Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#30
Why not just follow manufacturer instructions?... There is nothing to loose.
Speaker internal cables (for bass and treble) may have length adjusted in conformity with jumpers cable type and length.
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