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BiWire Jumpers on biwireable speakers.
#41
@Jean-Marie,

I'd love to see a well conducted double blind study on this but I don't think we'll see one.

Regardless of whether you use ABX or simply an AB double blind study, the design is going to be critical because the comparison requires a connection change on each of 2 speakers so you can't just throw a switch to make the change unless you build some kind of switching box that can do it. That box is going to need to have single wire terminals for the input, biwire terminals for the output, and some way of swapping the positive connection from the input between the positive input for the bass speaker and the positive input for the tweeter, and that is going to have to be repeated for the second speaker as well. I don't know of any device that will do that so it would probably have to be built and then you'd want to test it to ensure that whatever the switching mechanism was did not add any noise or artefacts to the output which might mask any differences that may be caused by the different connection method. The requirement for a switching box probably makes reliable double blind testing of this impossible for most audiophiles and the delay caused if the connection is going to be changed manually is going to be an issue given that audio memory is short term rendering AB comparisons with manual changes unreliable.

As I said, I'd like to see the results of a well designed and conducted test and for something like this you really need listening tests because it's not clear what we should be measuring. I did say that well designed tests are often the outcome of an accumulation of anecdotal reports from single individuals and, since such reports can be the trigger for a more rigorous well designed test, then the best i think we can hope for here is some more anecdotal reports from other members besides BoyScout.

If you read my earlier posts you will see that I have never claimed that there is a difference. I don't know and I've never tried or heard this connection method in use. My problem all along has simply been with the way the connection method has been dismissed by people who have not tried it on the basis of suppositions about cable length. Reading my earlier comments you will also see that I have agreed that cable length will not cause an audible difference in this case. If there is an audible difference it has to be due to some other cause but no one has addressed any other possible cause.

As always in science, absence of proof is not proof of absence. We have no reliable proof that it does make a difference and that doesn't prove that there is no difference. We also have no reliable proof that it doesn't make a difference and that doesn't prove that there is a difference. No matter what side anyone wants to take, none of us have any proof one way or the other and, without knowing what to measure, listening is the only test we have. If we can't get a well designed double blind listening test, we have to make do with individual listening reports which at least would be somewhat indicative one way or the other if there were a reasonable number of such reports with a strong consensus on whether or not there is a difference. It's definitely not the best way to do things but it's the only way to do things until a better test is designed and conducted.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#42
(04-Aug-2020, 13:41)David A Wrote: If we can't get a well designed double blind listening test, we have to make do with individual listening reports which at least would be somewhat indicative one way or the other if there were a reasonable number of such reports with a strong consensus on whether or not there is a difference. It's definitely not the best way to do things but it's the only way to do things until a better test is designed and conducted.

No matter how many individual, anecdotal reports you collated, even if they showed a consensus for a difference in sound quality it would tell you nothing about whether the perceived difference is caused by the difference in speaker wiring (objective), or other subjective factors such as bias.  And if there were a consensus it still wouldn't determine whether any given person would actually hear a difference.  So the whole exercise of collecting such anecdotal reports seems to have rather limited value from the point of view of discovering any useful "truth".
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#43
Too much complicated theories and tech justifications for something very simple.
... and I'm being discredited here and there, during the process. No hard feelings about it.
Please, someone have a try.
Innuos ZenMini, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#44
(04-Aug-2020, 15:00)BoyScout Wrote: ... and I'm being discredited here and there, during the process. No hard feelings about it.

Not at all (from my position): what you hear is entirely true for you, there's no argument about that.
Roon (Mac Mini), Wilson Benesch Full Circle, Expert 1000 Pro CI, Kaiser Chiara
Warwickshire, UK
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#45
(04-Aug-2020, 15:12)thumb5 Wrote:
(04-Aug-2020, 15:00)BoyScout Wrote: ... and I'm being discredited here and there, during the process. No hard feelings about it.

Not at all (from my position): what you hear is entirely true for you, there's no argument about that.

@BoyScout
I’m with @thumb5 here: no you are not discredited. 

There is no doubt on the fact that you perceive what you described. 

The doubt is on the reason for this perception, and unless / until a proper experiment is conducted, we won’t know. 

As @David A said, that would not be an experiment easy to pull out, because I agree with him that it would probably require a special switching device to be built for that very purpose. 

Bottom line, and I have already stated this opinion several times, although I tend to be a a skeptical and objectivist (usually for the the greater good of my wallet), I never forget that the principal instrument we are listening with is our brain, so whatever makes me/you feel better, better enjoy, perceive an increase in quality is absolutely fair game, and if you/we can afford it, why would we not do it?

Jean-Marie
MacBookPro -> Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
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#46
(04-Aug-2020, 15:00)BoyScout Wrote: Too much complicated theories and tech justifications for something very simple.
... and I'm being discredited here and there, during the process. No hard feelings about it.
Please, someone have a try.

When it comes to suggestions like this, there is always going to be disagreements, theories, justifications, and demands for proof of various kinds from people who hear a difference, people who don't hear a difference, and people who haven't listened and have no personal experience but who have ideas about it. I'm sorry but that's been the initial history of many audio devices and techniques. It seems to be unavoidable. Even when we do have measurements and tests we often have disagreements about whether the results are valid, the methods used were valid, and/or what the results really mean. People are passionate about their audio and it comes out in many ways including in this way. Probably one of the few things on which we have universal agreement is that speakers make sound and some things can change that sound though we definitely don't have universal agreement on what things can change the sound.

So, simply accept that others are going to have different opinions about some of the things you do and buy and keep doing what you're doing, keep experimenting and trying the things that interest you and intrigue you. Just doing that is part of the fun of this hobby so don't let opposing views and opinions upset you. They're unavoidable. If you're into audio because you like listening to recorded music, then just go for a system which brings you enjoyment and if you want to improve the sound that you're getting—we all want to do that—try things that you think may make a difference or even ideas that intrigue you and make you wonder whether something can really make a difference, regardless of what others think about them. As Jean-Marie said, in the end we listen with our ears and we have to live with what our ears tell us. Measurements can give us lots of useful information but they don't and can't tell us everything we want or need to know. It's our ears that tell us what we like, how much we're enjoying it, and when the music is working its magic on us. In the end it's what our ears tell us the really important things, along with some other other non-measurable responses such as whether you've suddenly got a smile on your face or your foot or hand is happily tapping away on its own.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#47
(04-Aug-2020, 15:00)BoyScout Wrote: Too much complicated theories and tech justifications for something very simple.
... and I'm being discredited here and there, during the process. No hard feelings about it.
Please, someone have a try.

That would be me  Confused

Yes, I'm discrediting you but only in the context of you being human. I've done it myself (thinking the was an improvement where there was none) and I think it's a phenomenon that has to be taken into account in these discussions. After all, we're talking about a 'probability' that is so far fetched, it goes against everything I've learned and, more importantly, my experience in data transmission. 

I've said it before, I don't get involved in discussions about stuff I don't know enough about, however dubious some claims can be, but this one is a no brainer to me.
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#48
No matter the price, the fame, the opinion of the rest of the globe, all the equipment I buy is tested here at home first.
When the differences are too subtle to justify the price, it is certain to go back to the dealer.
This has been going on for many years, and over the years there have been cases where if I did a blind test I wouldn't know which one I was listening to.
This is definitely not one of those cases.
But I also admit, with my poor technical knowledge, that I can't find an explanation.
I would love to have you all here at home to understand what I'm talking about.
It would be a well spent evening, I assure you.


(P.S.: Pim would pay the beers, the rest would be mine, of course.)
Innuos ZenMini, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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#49
(04-Aug-2020, 22:31)BoyScout Wrote: No matter the price, the fame, the opinion of the rest of the globe, all the equipment I buy is tested here at home first.
When the differences are too subtle to justify the price, it is certain to go back to the dealer.
This has been going on for many years, and over the years there have been cases where if I did a blind test I wouldn't know which one I was listening to.
This is definitely not one of those cases.
But I also admit, with my poor technical knowledge, that I can't find an explanation.
I would love to have you all here at home to understand what I'm talking about.
It would be a well spent evening, I assure you.


(P.S.: Pim would pay the beers, the rest would be mine, of course.)

Got a carton under my arm. Where do I go?
                                                    Lifetime Roon, Mac mini, int. SSD, ext. HDD, tv as monitor, key board and track pad on bean bag as remote,Devialet 200, Od'A #097, Blue jeans speaker cable,                                     
                                                                                                                                                                            Dynaudio C1 MkII.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim Smith's GBS.
                                                                                                                                                                        Northern NSW Australia.
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#50
(04-Aug-2020, 23:47)Pim Wrote:
(04-Aug-2020, 22:31)BoyScout Wrote: No matter the price, the fame, the opinion of the rest of the globe, all the equipment I buy is tested here at home first.
When the differences are too subtle to justify the price, it is certain to go back to the dealer.
This has been going on for many years, and over the years there have been cases where if I did a blind test I wouldn't know which one I was listening to.
This is definitely not one of those cases.
But I also admit, with my poor technical knowledge, that I can't find an explanation.
I would love to have you all here at home to understand what I'm talking about.
It would be a well spent evening, I assure you.


(P.S.: Pim would pay the beers, the rest would be mine, of course.)

Got a carton under my arm. Where do I go?

To the other side of the planet, Portugal.
Innuos ZenMini, Devialet 220 Pro CI, Black Sixteen speaker cables, Sonus Faber Guarneri Tradition and a pair of ears.
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