Dual mono with REL Subwoofer

[PeppaPig]

Lots of talk about size in the thread. Has anyone thought of JL Audio instead of REL? They use more powerful amplifiers so they can get away with a smaller footprint box. If I were shopping, both REL and JL would be on my list.

Hi Pim, I have done quite a lot of research recently, it seem for HiFi system, REL is the way to go.

[martynbaker1]

Hey guys,

So I’ve noticed a few people mention about positioning of the sub and thought I’d share my experience with a single G2 via pre-out in a 4x5m room - might be helpful for experimenting if not all transferable info.

So firstly a single G2 pressurises the room pretty much anywhere I placed it which is crazy! When placed near the front right corner the bloated boom was too much.  I don’t get how corner loading can work well for music - it lost all the texture and richness for me. Essentially I had to move it slightly in front of my Raidho’s and further into room.

The boom had gone but it still sounded a bit muddy or out of time.

As well as for bass loading, the reason subs are placed behind the speakers is for phase/timing (even if RELs have a really fast crossover, there is still a slight delay). Also Raidho’s have to be the fastest speakers ive heard so timing was noticeable.

So next thing I changed was speaker delay without effecting the pre out in the configurator. A big plus for the Devialet over almost any other amplification option. I ended on 3ms. I know that doesn’t sound a lot but it’s what changed me from regretting the sub purchase to loving it.

My sub is placed to the inside of the right speaker roughly aimed past my left ear. There is no sense of direction for anything below about 30hz. Having the sub to the right ensures it’s a bit more forgiving of direction when you get 30-40hz as most orchestras’ bass or double bass instruments are to the right. Interestingly, when I fired the sub directly into the opposite diagonal back left corner, the bass exaggeration was actually on my left ear, not the right side where the sub was placed.

Something I’d already done (to tame the Raidho bass) was install 2 tube traps in corners behind speakers. This did almost nothing for tuning the frequency response of the room (which was a real shame though achieved in Roon below 200hz), it did however dramatically decrease the decay of bass notes in the room making the bass so much quicker and tighter. This was very easy to confirm in room eq with the spectrogram.

As far as crossover and volume goes, I’ve nothing to add here as everyone else has covered this well. I would say it’s easier to start with everything too loud and high and tune it down, rather than starting quiet and turning it up. Trust ear over measurements. Be patient.

I’d be very careful with using tools like REQ to make the final decision on levels. It’s a helpful starting point but tuning with ears gave a much more satisfying response. I definitely would not use a PEQ in players like Roon to dial things in at the crossover point of the sub/speakers. As it effectively turned down a bit of the sub and speakers and lost some ‘slam’. Even if you use RoomEQ to measure, I’d only use the REL controls to dial in at the crossover.

And is it worth getting a sub? 100% yes. For me it just made everything else so real. You don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone, and when I turned the sub off to compare, I wondered what had a happened to the music! Yet that’s how I’d been listening to music for years up until the REL G1. A great purchase.



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Hi Mart, thanks for sharing your experience. In my case I have to put the sub behind the main speaker and also very near the corner, I am a bit worry when my S5 arrived it will sound boomy after reading your post.

By the way do you mind to share a screenshot of your Devialet configurator? how you set that 3m delay? Your G2 has a carbon cone, should be extremely fast in response. Surprise 3ms makes you feel the big differences.

Hi no worries. As with everything else I’m sure it’s room dependant and lots of people report good results with corner loading. I just know the G2 was not happy at all with it in my room. It did make the room pressurise at a higher frequency (it was great for movies) but there was no character or richness to the bass below 40hz.

I’m on the move so will share a screengrab again. From memory it’s under speaker settings/setup and you set delay for main speakers without effecting pre out.




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[thumb5]

...
So next thing I changed was speaker delay without effecting the pre out in the configurator. A big plus for the Devialet over almost any other amplification option. I ended on 3ms. I know that doesn’t sound a lot but it’s what changed me from regretting the sub purchase to loving it.
...

...
By the way do you mind to share a screenshot of your Devialet configurator? how you set that 3m delay? Your G2 has a carbon cone, should be extremely fast in response. Surprise 3ms makes you feel the big differences.

The 3ms delay is there mainly (I assume) to compensate for the fact that the distance from the sub to the listener is further than from the main speakers to the listener, not to compensate for the sub itself being "slower" than the main speakers.  (Although having said that if there's signal processing going on the sub that might cause a delay in the sub output that can also be compensated for by adding delay to the mains.) 

Incidentally, a 3 ms delay is equivalent to about 1m difference in path length, because the speed of sound at normal temperature and pressure is about 340 m/sec.

[PeppaPig]

Hey guys,

So I’ve noticed a few people mention about positioning of the sub and thought I’d share my experience with a single G2 via pre-out in a 4x5m room - might be helpful for experimenting if not all transferable info.

So firstly a single G2 pressurises the room pretty much anywhere I placed it which is crazy! When placed near the front right corner the bloated boom was too much.  I don’t get how corner loading can work well for music - it lost all the texture and richness for me. Essentially I had to move it slightly in front of my Raidho’s and further into room.

The boom had gone but it still sounded a bit muddy or out of time.

As well as for bass loading, the reason subs are placed behind the speakers is for phase/timing (even if RELs have a really fast crossover, there is still a slight delay). Also Raidho’s have to be the fastest speakers ive heard so timing was noticeable.

So next thing I changed was speaker delay without effecting the pre out in the configurator. A big plus for the Devialet over almost any other amplification option. I ended on 3ms. I know that doesn’t sound a lot but it’s what changed me from regretting the sub purchase to loving it.

My sub is placed to the inside of the right speaker roughly aimed past my left ear. There is no sense of direction for anything below about 30hz. Having the sub to the right ensures it’s a bit more forgiving of direction when you get 30-40hz as most orchestras’ bass or double bass instruments are to the right. Interestingly, when I fired the sub directly into the opposite diagonal back left corner, the bass exaggeration was actually on my left ear, not the right side where the sub was placed.

Something I’d already done (to tame the Raidho bass) was install 2 tube traps in corners behind speakers. This did almost nothing for tuning the frequency response of the room (which was a real shame though achieved in Roon below 200hz), it did however dramatically decrease the decay of bass notes in the room making the bass so much quicker and tighter. This was very easy to confirm in room eq with the spectrogram.

As far as crossover and volume goes, I’ve nothing to add here as everyone else has covered this well. I would say it’s easier to start with everything too loud and high and tune it down, rather than starting quiet and turning it up. Trust ear over measurements. Be patient.

I’d be very careful with using tools like REQ to make the final decision on levels. It’s a helpful starting point but tuning with ears gave a much more satisfying response. I definitely would not use a PEQ in players like Roon to dial things in at the crossover point of the sub/speakers. As it effectively turned down a bit of the sub and speakers and lost some ‘slam’. Even if you use RoomEQ to measure, I’d only use the REL controls to dial in at the crossover.

And is it worth getting a sub? 100% yes. For me it just made everything else so real. You don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone, and when I turned the sub off to compare, I wondered what had a happened to the music! Yet that’s how I’d been listening to music for years up until the REL G1. A great purchase.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Mart, thanks for sharing your experience. In my case I have to put the sub behind the main speaker and also very near the corner, I am a bit worry when my S5 arrived it will sound boomy after reading your post.

By the way do you mind to share a screenshot of your Devialet configurator? how you set that 3m delay? Your G2 has a carbon cone, should be extremely fast in response. Surprise 3ms makes you feel the big differences.

Hi no worries. As with everything else I’m sure it’s room dependant and lots of people report good results with corner loading. I just know the G2 was not happy at all with it in my room. It did make the room pressurise at a higher frequency (it was great for movies) but there was no character or richness to the bass below 40hz.

I’m on the move so will share a screengrab again. From memory it’s under speaker settings/setup and you set delay for main speakers without effecting pre out.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thanks Mart, is your room a closed space room or open space?

Mine is a L shaped open space room

[PeppaPig]

...
So next thing I changed was speaker delay without effecting the pre out in the configurator. A big plus for the Devialet over almost any other amplification option. I ended on 3ms. I know that doesn’t sound a lot but it’s what changed me from regretting the sub purchase to loving it.
...

...
By the way do you mind to share a screenshot of your Devialet configurator? how you set that 3m delay? Your G2 has a carbon cone, should be extremely fast in response. Surprise 3ms makes you feel the big differences.

The 3ms delay is there mainly (I assume) to compensate for the fact that the distance from the sub to the listener is further than from the main speakers to the listener, not to compensate for the sub itself being "slower" than the main speakers.  (Although having said that if there's signal processing going on the sub that might cause a delay in the sub output that can also be compensated for by adding delay to the mains.) 

Incidentally, a 3 ms delay is equivalent to about 1m difference in path length, because the speed of sound at normal temperature and pressure is about 340 m/sec.

Good thinking. It can be that reason too if Mart our his sub 1 meter behind the main speakers.

[martynbaker1]

...
So next thing I changed was speaker delay without effecting the pre out in the configurator. A big plus for the Devialet over almost any other amplification option. I ended on 3ms. I know that doesn’t sound a lot but it’s what changed me from regretting the sub purchase to loving it.
...

...
By the way do you mind to share a screenshot of your Devialet configurator? how you set that 3m delay? Your G2 has a carbon cone, should be extremely fast in response. Surprise 3ms makes you feel the big differences.

The 3ms delay is there mainly (I assume) to compensate for the fact that the distance from the sub to the listener is further than from the main speakers to the listener, not to compensate for the sub itself being "slower" than the main speakers.  (Although having said that if there's signal processing going on the sub that might cause a delay in the sub output that can also be compensated for by adding delay to the mains.) 

Incidentally, a 3 ms delay is equivalent to about 1m difference in path length, because the speed of sound at normal temperature and pressure is about 340 m/sec.

Yes I think that makes sense re distance. I wanted to broadly mention it in my original post but knew someone could be more specific! The delay is caused by the crossover of the sub rather than the woofer itself. And this delay is usually cancelled out when you place the sub 1m behind your main speakers. As my sub is inline with the speakers, delaying my actual speakers by 3ms provides the same effect.

Screen grab of config attached.




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[martynbaker1]

...
By the way do you mind to share a screenshot of your Devialet configurator? how you set that 3m delay? Your G2 has a carbon cone, should be extremely fast in response. Surprise 3ms makes you feel the big differences.

The 3ms delay is there mainly (I assume) to compensate for the fact that the distance from the sub to the listener is further than from the main speakers to the listener, not to compensate for the sub itself being "slower" than the main speakers.  (Although having said that if there's signal processing going on the sub that might cause a delay in the sub output that can also be compensated for by adding delay to the mains.) 

Incidentally, a 3 ms delay is equivalent to about 1m difference in path length, because the speed of sound at normal temperature and pressure is about 340 m/sec.

Yes I think that makes sense re distance. I wanted to broadly mention it in my original post but knew someone could be more specific! The delay is caused by the crossover of the sub rather than the woofer itself. And this delay is usually cancelled out when you place the sub 1m behind your main speakers. As my sub is inline with the speakers, delaying my actual speakers by 3ms provides the same effect.

Screen grab of config attached.




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Just to note, it’s 3.5ms, or 3,500 nano sec delay added to main speakers.


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[thumb5]

Sorry to be pedantic, but for the sake of correctness: 3.5 ms = 3,500 microseconds (not nanoseconds!).

[martynbaker1]

Sorry to be pedantic, but for the sake of correctness: 3.5 ms = 3,500 microseconds (not nanoseconds!).

Ah thanks


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[PeppaPig]

Sorry to be pedantic, but for the sake of correctness: 3.5 ms = 3,500 microseconds (not nanoseconds!).

Ah thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for sharing mate. My S5 is coming soon will see how it goes!