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One week countdown...
#11
(08-May-2020, 21:28)Dan Wrote: I’m going out on a limb here...we have seen the last of new features, fixes, and firmware upgrades.

I see you are in optimistic mood today. Smile

Cheers,
bernard
Room: Gik Acoustics | Vibration: Townshend pods | Power: Shunyata Omega XC + Everest + Sigma NR v2 + Sigma ground cables | Source: Mojo Audio DejaVu EVO linux server running Roon core (Raat) | Ethernet: Sonore Optical module + Melco S10P with dedicated LPS + Shunyata Omega Ethernet x 2| Synchronous: Mutec MC-3 + USB (Paul Hynes SR7T LPS) + Cybershaft OP21A (Shunyata Omega USB, AES/EBU, clock cables) | Dac/Pre/Amplification: Devialet D1000 Pro CI (Chord Sarum T RCA-RCA link) | Speakers: Chord Sarum T cables + Wilson Benesch Act One Evolution P1
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#12
(08-May-2020, 20:33)Greg Wrote: I think anyone can apply to be a beta tester. Just raise a ticket in Devialet help. Of course, they may have a full house which might prevent the opportunity. The main considerations are whether you want to risk compromising your personal amp, should you be issued with seriously buggy software to trial, and of course, you have to sign a gagging clause, preventing you from sharing any of what you learn (apart from with Devialet) as a result of the beta testing you do.

Personally, the risks and restrictions are too high a price to gamble, so I sit tight until an authenticated software release Comes out. We know a new release is going to be buggy anyway, but I feel sufficiently More secure that it won’t stop my system working. Just my three p’worth/cents worth.

I don't think it's as easy as that. When the CI board came out we had the option of using an "official" firmware release or a beta release which offered some additional features. If you wanted to use the beta release you had to sign up for the beta program and they had a web page where you could do that. Many of us here, including me, signed up so they have a list of owners who were willing back then to act as beta testers and I suspect most of those who signed up at that stage would still be willing to act as beta testers.

As far as I know, none of us have been offered the opportunity to act as beta testers for the current beta, and I didn't hear of any of us being offered that opportunity in relation to the last firmware release. That doesn't make me think that they're in a hurry to recruit beta testers, it makes me think they're keeping the beta testing program small and restricted.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#13
(08-May-2020, 21:28)Dan Wrote: I’m going out on a limb here...we have seen the last of new features, fixes, and firmware upgrades.

They've been getting reviews of the Expert Pro range in the last year, and they've supplied the reviewers with amps for review. I don't think they'd encourage and support reviews if they weren't committed to the Expert Pro range into at least the medium term because favourable reviews—and all of those I've seen have been favourable—tend to encourage sales and the last thing you want to do if you want to kill a product line is to encourage sales by handing out amps for review.

I'd start to give up on expecting fixes and firmware upgrades when they stop promoting the line and they're still promoting it. New features is a different thing, they may decide to hang off on new features until they bring out the next version of the Expert Pro range. I think we can expect bug fixes at the very least while they're still actively promoting the current range and they're currently doing that with advertising and with supplying amps for review.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#14
Devialet with the Expert Pro have produced near perfection in a single box, or two in my case. Its one main flaw is the cumbersome SD card which is letting the whole thing down very badly. There is no logical reason why with the introduction of the CI board three years ago they could not have addressed this issue and allowed us dynamic configurations and firmware updates which would have made their and our lives so much easier.

For such a beautiful package, scrabbling round the back of the thing covering it in fingerprints unless you have your white gloves on is archaic. Anyway, as it stands the web site is not even storing my configurations any more. There is clearly a crisis of confidence in Devialet land over their flagship product which would be unimaginable in many of their competitors.
Devialet 1000 Pro CI, Chord Signature Reference speaker cables, B&W 803 D3 speakers

Roon lifetime licence, Tidal.
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#15
@bernardl - I’m not a pessimistic person by nature, even in these virus times. And I like my 1000 - it’s just that I grew weary a long time ago over Devialet’s customer/product approach. It seems to me there were all kinds of things promised/implied with the upgrades/CI Boards/etc. (Do I see you made the move to the 1000? Congrats)
@David A - it’s clear they want to sell as many Experts as they can - why not, the R&D is done. I just find it telling that they are pushing them with no new features. I am used to audio companies coming out with new models and features and promoting them - not the same model from years ago. Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m happy to be proven wrong.
Nucklehead AMD Server  -   Devialet 1000Pro  -  Magico S3 Speakers
New England
USA
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#16
(09-May-2020, 13:34)Dan Wrote:
@David A - it’s clear they want to sell as many Experts as they can - why not, the R&D is done. I just find it telling that they are pushing them with no new features. I am used to audio companies coming out with new models and features and promoting them - not the same model from years ago. Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m happy to be proven wrong.

I don't disagree with you on Devialet wanting to sell as many Experts as they can but I think you're wrong about the reason. It's not because the R&D is done, it's simply because companies stay in business by selling as many of their products as they can.

Products actually tend not to come on the market before the R&D is done. Usually if you're still researching and developing you don't have the product in shape to put on the market. The one exception to that is software and really that's what we're talking about here.

My post was in response to your comment that we had seen the last of "new features, fixes, and firmware upgrades". Firmware upgrades aren't something different from new features and fixes, firmware upgrades are the way that new features and fixes get delivered to us. If we've seen the end of firmware upgrades then that's because Devialet have decided not to deliver any new features or fixes. You can't decide to stop delivering firmware upgrades but keep on delivering new features and fixes. On the other hand, once you decide not to deliver any new features or fixes you don't have to decide not to deliver firmware upgrades, there simply won't be any firmware upgrades to deliver once you rule out new features and fixes. It's a pedantic point but it is relevant.

My view is that Devialet are contractually obligated to deliver at least one more firmware upgrade. The reason for that is that they sold the Expert Pro/CI board models with promises of particular features and one of those features was Bluetooth capability. They acknowledged in the firmware update last February that it was still outstanding. At the very least my view is that they are legally obligated to deliver the functionality they promised for these amps when they started selling them and I think they will deliver on that obligation. I think it's disturbing and disgraceful that two and a half years after they released the CI board they still haven't delivered on all of the promised functionality and even more disgraceful that it's now been a year and 3 months since they delivered an "instalment" on the fulfilment of those promises. I also believe companies have a legal obligation to provide bug fixes because a general principle in a lot of consumer law is that products must be fit for purpose and bugs in software is evidence that the product isn't yet completely fit for purpose. If they don't deliver Bluetooth capability and bug fixes then they're going to get a reputation for failing to deliver what they've promised which isn't good for business. At present I think they've got a reputation for mildly buggy software and incredibly slow fixes for their bugs which isn't a good reputation to have but it's not as bad a reputation as one for simply failing to deliver and leaving the customer with permanent problems. You can argue that after the length of time we've been waiting that I'm splitting hairs and I'll say you may well be right but I think we will get at least one more firmware release which will attempt to fix all of the outstanding issues and I'll stick my neck out and say I think we'll see it this year. I hope to see it much earlier than on December 31 but I'm not all that hopeful about seeing it within the next week.

Finally, when it comes to audio companies and the frequency of new models, my experience is that things fall into two groups. There are the companies which release new models on an annual basis and those which work on longer product cycles. My general impression is that those who release new models annually tend to only provide firmware support for a very limited period and that any bugs which haven't been fixed with a firmware release by the time the next model comes out get the bug fixed in the next model and you pay for the new model as the price of your bug fix. I tend not to be impressed by companies who work on that kind of product cycle and I think they also tend to produce products which may be good but never reach the very good to excellent level. The companies who do produce very good to excellent products tend to spend a lot more time on research and development and keep their models current for two to three years at the very least and often for much longer, especially if they can introduce new features and performance improvements by firmware. I think Devialet fall into that group although their firmware support is nowhere near the quality of some other companies in that group. Even so, I'd rather buy a current model Expert Pro than a current model amp from another company which I know will be superseded sometime in the next 12 months by a new model which fixes outstanding problems in the current model and which itself will be superseded by a subsequent model 12 months later. When it comes to hardware I definitely prefer products which are intended to remain current for several years and which can continue to deliver good performance for much longer than that. I used my previous amp for 13 years and my previous speakers for 15 years. I hope I will be still using my 140 Pro, purchased in 2017 as a 130 Pro without the CI board, in 2027 and if I'm not then it will almost certainly be because I changed my speakers and needed a different amp to drive them successfully or because of some new development in audio which I wanted to get which required a change of amp. Good hardware is too expensive to replace annually in my view.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#17
The thing that is really a pity with Devialet is that they are 95% done I would say. But the missing 5% are a huge pain for some users and it feels like it shouldn't be too technically difficult/financially expensive to go from 95% to 100%.

I think it's really a problem of mindset on Devialet's part and a misunderstanding of the market they have chosen to enter with the Expert line. Most users here are extremely demanding and 95% feels closer to 0% than to a 100%.

We simply expect nothing short of perfection and we would probably not have considered buying a Devialet if we did.

The belief in the potential of the brand as well as satisfaction from what works is really there, but it comes with way more frustration that need be. I am not even thinking about people who'd be less IT fluent.

Let's hope we get a firmware fix soon that really addresses the remaining core issues and delivers on the Bluetooth promise.

Cheers,
Bernard
Room: Gik Acoustics | Vibration: Townshend pods | Power: Shunyata Omega XC + Everest + Sigma NR v2 + Sigma ground cables | Source: Mojo Audio DejaVu EVO linux server running Roon core (Raat) | Ethernet: Sonore Optical module + Melco S10P with dedicated LPS + Shunyata Omega Ethernet x 2| Synchronous: Mutec MC-3 + USB (Paul Hynes SR7T LPS) + Cybershaft OP21A (Shunyata Omega USB, AES/EBU, clock cables) | Dac/Pre/Amplification: Devialet D1000 Pro CI (Chord Sarum T RCA-RCA link) | Speakers: Chord Sarum T cables + Wilson Benesch Act One Evolution P1
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#18
(09-May-2020, 13:34)Dan Wrote: @bernardl - I’m not a pessimistic person by nature, even in these virus times. And I like my 1000 - it’s just that I grew weary a long time ago over Devialet’s customer/product approach. It seems to me there were all kinds of things promised/implied with the upgrades/CI Boards/etc. (Do I see you made the move to the 1000? Congrats)

Sure, I fully understand.  Wink

Thanks, it does sound great but there are annoying issues with the configurator still...

After 9 years of not touching my system (I was one of the first 100 Devialet D-Premier customers WW) I decided to replace my speakers thanks to a good deal I was lucky to find. And here I am with something better on the amp side too with the addition of a second D250 Pro CI, but also more complex to manage.

I just hope that Devialet is still listening and working on something good for us.

I am planning next to replace my Mac mini by a finless Linux based server from Mojo Audio that promises to be pretty much best in class too. That will leave very little to optimize. Wink

Cheers,
Bernard
Room: Gik Acoustics | Vibration: Townshend pods | Power: Shunyata Omega XC + Everest + Sigma NR v2 + Sigma ground cables | Source: Mojo Audio DejaVu EVO linux server running Roon core (Raat) | Ethernet: Sonore Optical module + Melco S10P with dedicated LPS + Shunyata Omega Ethernet x 2| Synchronous: Mutec MC-3 + USB (Paul Hynes SR7T LPS) + Cybershaft OP21A (Shunyata Omega USB, AES/EBU, clock cables) | Dac/Pre/Amplification: Devialet D1000 Pro CI (Chord Sarum T RCA-RCA link) | Speakers: Chord Sarum T cables + Wilson Benesch Act One Evolution P1
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#19
I think Devialet lost their motivation at all with the full product lineup and probably this has been caused by software development frustration. Probably they have struggled a lot with the software issues and as these issues have been super complex and hard for them to figure out/ fix as we know and maybe there was a disappointment in the investment/exit plans too. In the end, all/some of these factors caused some big changes in their company. We have seen changes in their senior management and probably it also impacted the teams. All in all, what I see is the company is just focused on partner deals that are more on the business development and revenue targeting approach than product development. Generally, it doesn't point to a good journey for a tech-based company but I really want to be wrong as they have a great product but what I see is super clear, they don't have enough passion for move it to the next stages whether it is because of a mess in their software development or because of an unsuccessful exit journey.
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#20
I got some encouraging comments from Devialet recently that I cannot detail but that go in the right direction.

Cheers,
Bernard
Room: Gik Acoustics | Vibration: Townshend pods | Power: Shunyata Omega XC + Everest + Sigma NR v2 + Sigma ground cables | Source: Mojo Audio DejaVu EVO linux server running Roon core (Raat) | Ethernet: Sonore Optical module + Melco S10P with dedicated LPS + Shunyata Omega Ethernet x 2| Synchronous: Mutec MC-3 + USB (Paul Hynes SR7T LPS) + Cybershaft OP21A (Shunyata Omega USB, AES/EBU, clock cables) | Dac/Pre/Amplification: Devialet D1000 Pro CI (Chord Sarum T RCA-RCA link) | Speakers: Chord Sarum T cables + Wilson Benesch Act One Evolution P1
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