Roon RAAT and "An audio file is loading slowly"

[David A]

@wiresandmore ,

There's a lot of history to this problem but @mdconnelly highlighted what I think are the 2 main issues when he mentioned a link with high-res music though I would have said higher sampling rates rather than 24 bit was the trigger there, and the use of a 100 MBPS connection to the Devialet as a fix. I also agree that the 2020 FW update for the Expert Pros improved things but wasn't a complete fix.

Raising the issue on the Roon forums won't help. Roon has said it's a Devialet problem and that they even offered to help Devialet solve the issue and that Devialet declined the offer. Devialet have admitted that the problem is theirs so Roon really can't do anything to solve it. We're stuck waiting for Devialet to deliver an update that will finally fix the problem for good but we've now been waiting 3 years so I wouldn't hold my breath.

I've been using an EtherRegen now for a year with a 100 MBOS connection to my Expert Pro I've had only 1 instance in that time of seeing the Audio File loading slowly message and that was while streaming an album from Qobuz so it's probable that was due to a problem with the internet connection somewhere between the server and my internet connection. Using a 100 MBPS ethernet connection rather than a gigabit connection to the Expert Pro does seem to solve the problem and it does not impact music quality.

There are 2 other fixes. One is to stream from Roon using AIR instead of RAAT. Streaming using AIR seems to avoid the problem. Using the Expert Pro's wifi input rather than ethernet also apparently solves the problem.

One thing you did not mention concerned how you stream to your Devialet. Do you have Roon upsample everything to 192/24 or do you stream at native resolution? If you have Roon upsampling everything then I would strongly recommend not doing that and simply streaming everything at native resolution. When we first got the ability to stream using RAAT which was prior to my getting the EtherRegen I couldn't understand what people were talking about when they reported this problem. I was streaming at native resolution with RAAT , the highest res files I had on my own drive were 24/96 apart from one 24/176.4 album, and I was not experiencing the problem. In the end I set Roon to upsample everything to 24/192 and I started getting the problem immediately. I swapped back to streaming at native res and the problem virtually disappeared again. I did not notice any difference in sound quality leaving the upsampling to the Devialet, which internally upsamples everything to 384 Hz and, I think, 32 bit, compared to letting Roon upsample everything to 24/192 with a second upsampling processs in my Expert Pro.

Streaming from Roon at native resolution is not a guaranteed fix for the problem but it can reduce the frequency of the problem immensely in some cases and it also does not impact on sound quality. If you've been using Roon to upsample everything to 24/192 you may even be lucky enough, provided you have no 24/192 files on your drive and don't stream anything at 24'192 from Qobuz or any other internet source, to actually not run into this problem at all even using a gigabit connection. I have no idea why I was that fortunate and whether or not my good fortune had something to do with my particular network setup but the experience of different people with this problem varies widely. I only experienced the problem if I streamed music at 24/192, never at lower resolutions including 24/176.4. If I streamed at 24/192 then the problem occurred within minutes and kept occurring every few minutes while at lower resolutions it never occurred at all for me. Others have reported the problem at all resolutions including 16/44.1. As I said, streaming at native resolution from Roon is not a guaranteed fix but it can help and it can even help immensely for some people.

Regardless of whether you choose to use a 100 MPBS ethernet connection, stream via AIR, or use wifi to solve the problem, I would recommend streaming from Roon at native resolution rather than upsampling in Roon.

[wiresandmore]

Thanks, that’s very helpful. I did the easiest thing first, which was to configure my Unifi switch port going to the Devialet to be 100 instead of GigE. Let’s see how it performs with that.

I’m pretty sure I haven’t set Roon to upsample (I assume if I have I would see a notification when I hover over the white “light” icon in the signal path pop-up?).

I’ll report back in a few days.

Thanks again everyone

[David A]

Thanks, that’s very helpful. I did the easiest thing first, which was to configure my Unifi switch port going to the Devialet to be 100 instead of GigE. Let’s see how it performs with that.

I’m pretty sure I haven’t set Roon to upsample (I assume if I have I would see a notification when I hover over the white “light” icon in the signal path pop-up?).

I’ll report back in a few days.

Thanks again everyone

Tap/click on the white light and the whole signal path display will appear. There will be a line in the display detailing the upsampling if Roon is doing any upsampling. If no upsampling is occurring in Roon there will only  e 3 lines for Source, the Expert Pro, and for the output from the Expert Pro.

[Jean-Marie]

As my signature shows, I have PLC between my MacBook Pro running the Roon server and my D220 pro ci.

Given my network condition, I have a bit shy of 200Mbps between Roon and the D220, and despite only listening to 44/16 material, it happens from times to times that I have the dreaded “An audio file is loading slowly”.

I know the general consensus that the problem resides in the Devialet, however, after extensive trial, the only thing that resolves the problem for me is to stop the server and restart it.

So the root cause may be the network handling in the Devialet, but I would not be surprised if Roon does have its part of responsibility, something along the lines that the mishandling in the Devialet is triggering a faulty behavior in Roon.

Bottom line, my crossing my fingers so that the next manifestation for me is not before a few months.

Jean-Marie

[wiresandmore]

So - a brief update.

I’ve ordered a 100MB switch from Amazon which will arrive later today (joy of Sunday deliveries in Dublin!).

I did configure the port (using the Unifi controller) to 100MB and also tried WiFi. Still getting dropouts on RAAT.

However, trying AIR now, it seems more stable - and surprisingly sounds better too - and yes, I know that’s a whole other topic with threads, polls etc. Noticed improved dynamics, musicality etc. Quite a shock how much better in fact.

Testing continuing….!!

[David A]

…
So the root cause may be the network handling in the Devialet, but I would not be surprised if Roon does have its part of responsibility, something along the lines that the mishandling in the Devialet is triggering a faulty behavior in Roon.
…

I think it is well accepted that Roon's RAAT is a difficult streaming protocol in some ways. It relies on a lot more data being streamed back to Roon from the end point than other protocols and this was documented by measurements made by a forum member back in the early months when this problem was first reported. Roon also makes a lot of internet data calls that other streaming software doesn't. Roon is aware of this and their last to software updates have included changes to improve streaming performance for ALL users, not specifically Devialet users.

Still, it's impossible to get around the fact that the problem Devialet users are reporting is not occurring for users of other devices in a Roon based system. Roon have also said that our problem is not a Roon problem and Devialet have effectively said the problem was a Devialet problem and have issued a partial fix. I'm not saying that users of other devices than a Devialet don't have problems with Roon but Roon has a strong record of acknowledging problems when they occur and fixing them and I am unaware of users of any other device complaining about a problem that has remained unfixed, whether by Room or by their equipments's manufacturer, for as long as this problem has existed. There is something here unique to Devialet.

I don't know that there is any evidence that "mishandling in the Devialet is triggering a faulty behavior in Roon". What is the evidence for that. Roon is reporting that a problem is occurring with the communication between Roon and the Devialet but that does not tell us whether something in the Devialet is triggering a fault in Roon or whether something in the stream from Roon is triggering a fault in the Devialet. All the error message is telling us is that a fault is occurring SOMEWHERE.

Historically Roon seems to have a much better track record of fixing software faults than Devialet has. Devialet, for instance, didn't issue a first attempt at fixing this problem until nearly 2 years after the problem arose when the Devialet became Roon Ready. If you check the history of Roon's software updates you will find multiple instances of Roon issuing bug fixes within days or a couple of weeks of a problem arising. Roon are also much more open than Devialet about admitting when their software has a bug while Devialet on the other hand is extremely uncommunicative about problems and what they're doing about them. There are also features promised for the Expert Pro range back when the range was first released without the CI board which have still to be delivered several years after the CI board was released.

I also remember that when Roon added the ability to stream to a Devialet using AIR, there were numerous posts on this forum with users saying how Roon's implementation of AIR actually workied properly and how it didn't have the problems people had been reporting when using Devialet's own AIR app which, I understand, still has problems.

I am extremely happy with my 140 Pro, it does what I want and it does that extremely well. I have no thoughts of changing to a different amplifier. I'm not trying to say bad things about Devialet for the sake of just running them down but it has to be said that Deviialet do a much better job with their hardware than they do with their software or their customer communication. In a situation like this one I look at the evidence I have which basically boils down to the statements made by both companies and the history of the performance of both companies when it comes to software problems over the last few years. Roon have been significantly more willing to admit fault and fix problems and I would regard them as being more honest than Devialet simply because of their greater openness and willing to admit and fix things quickly when they have a problem.

I don't believe that the Devialet is triggering a fault in Roon. If it were, then on past experience Roon would have admitted that fact quickly, have fixed it quickly, and we would not still be regularly discussing this situation. Roon is definitely reporting the interruption of the stream but, as I said above, that just tells us that there is a fault. It says nothing about what the fault is or where it is located.

[markush]

BTW new ROON version with improved streaming just released: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-1-...ive/190552

Really hope Devialet is finally doing anything at all - no firmware update for a very long time and still a number of bugs open.

[Jean-Marie]

@David A

The fact that makes wonder is the following based on my system:
1) it happens very rarely
2) when it happens it is then happening consistently within 10 to 15 seconds
3) if I restart the Devialet, including unplugging it and replacing it, the problem is still there
4) if I restart every single element of the network between Roon and the Devialet, the problem is still there
5) if I do 3 and 4 together, then problem is still there
6) it’s only when I quit the Roon server and restart it that the problem goes away for a very long time.
7) doing 6 alone does make the problem go away for a long time.

So my reasoning is that if the behavior of the Devialet is not triggering an abnormal condition in Roon, I don’t see an explaination why 6 is the only action that solves the problem for me.

But if you have another hypothesis, I would be very interested to consider it because if my reasoning is at fault, understanding why would make me progress.

All the best,
Jean-Marie

[mdconnelly]

@Jean-Marie - I feel your pain. There is no doubt that this problem, when it occurs, seems quite unique to Roon RAAT and the Expert Pro (when using gigabit ethernet and hi-res music). I do not experience this at all on other endpoints that also use Roon RAAT. I had this problem for a long time UNTIL I replaced my Win 10 RoonServer with a NUC running ROCK. Since then, I no longer ever see the problem. Go figure...

[David A]

@Jean-Marie

We've had very different experiences with the problem and our own experience plays a large part in the reasoning and conclusions we each reach.

In my case the problem only occurred if I streamed music at 24/192 when it occurred quickly and repeatedly. Going back to streaming at native resolution (I had no 24/192 content on my server and Tidal didn't offer anything higher than 24/96, even after letting Roon do the first MQA decode) ensured the problem occurred incredibly rarely, as in once in several months. I can't remember if I had to restart everything including the server as well as going back to streaming at native resolution but, in my case, the trigger for the problem was very definitely a 24/192 stream.

Having read your post above I can see why you would think that the Devialet is triggering an abnormal condition in Roon. My experience does not suggest that and I don't know how many other people's experience aligns with your experience, or how many's experience aligns with mine. We simply don't have the data. The error message itself only tells us there is a problem and tells us nothing about the cause or location of the problem. In addition the wording of the error message is pretty generic and I have no doubt that there is more than one condition which could interrupt playback and result in the generation of that message. For example, the wording of the message would seem to be appropriate if there are problems between Tidal's or any other service's servers and between your Roon device and Roon isn't receiving data from the server in a timely manner.

Let's say that you are correct that the Devialet's behaviour is triggering an abnormal condition in Roon. Whose problem is it. If the Devialet's behaviour is inappropriate, if the Devialet isn't handling the stream correctly and it is that problem which triggers a fault in Roon, then it would seem that the proper solution would be to fix the problem in Devialet's code so that the Devialet does not exhibit that behaviour. On the other hand, if there's some behaviour of the Devialet which is not inappropriate but for some reason an appropriate response from the Devialet to Roon triggers the abnormal condition in Roon, then the proper solution would be for Roon to fix their code. We don't know whether the problem is arising in the Devialet or in Roon, logically it has to be in one of them, but we don't know. The fact that restarting the Roon server fixes the problem doesn't prove that the problem lies in Roon. Ancillary devices have been known to trigger faults in computers which require rebooting the computer to clear the fault condition, even though the cause of the problem lies elsewhere.

As I said in my first paragraph, your experience of the problem is different to mine and @mdconnelly 's experience is different again. Don't forget that this problem not only got through Devialet's beta testing but then got through Roon's certification process without being discovered by either company.

In the end the only things which are clear is that Roon stated soon after the problem was first noticed that the cause of the problem was not in Roon and Devialet, while saying little, has acknowledged the problem, been working on a fix, and has released a FW update which they said went some way to fixing it. That strongly suggests to me that the problem which needs fixing lies in Devialet's code rather than in Roon's.

I don't know if my reasoning is better or worse than yours. There's an old gag line which says "I think our problem is a lack of information but I have nothing to base that on" and after more than 2 years with this problem causing issues for many users none of us users appear to have any solid information to say where the problem lies. All any of us can do is to consider the facts as we know them, heavily influenced as we are by our own experience, and try to come up with a conclusion that we think makes some kind of sense out of what is a very confusing problem which has affected lots of users in a number of different ways.