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#21
In the end it is very simple. Compile a list of pluses and minuses per solution, weigh them, add them and you'll find the best solution for yourself. Opinions of other people don't matter at all, except maybe when these possibly say something about it's resale value. And when I say opinions I of course don't mean genuine experiences, people could help you improve your user experience by sharing theirs and how they 'got there'.

I for one read too many issues of a Mac/JRiver based AIR setup so I'd steer away from that. The Windows/JRiver AIR setup otoh is incredibly stable and for me AIR itself is also nowadays. There are also many tools that can batch convert media files to and from different formats e.g. the brilliant dBPowerAmp.

In practice I don't see a difference between a small, silent fanless headless PC and a lower end NAS (they're in essence both simple computers) except the PC gives you a much better value. It's hardware is faster, richer and better and it's software possibilities are endless. Of course if you're a computer illiterate or don't like setting it up once, this might change the balance.

I'm glad to see you're communicating with Devialet as you of course know that complaining on an Internet forum doesn't help, or better said, change anything. It could of course help you feel better for a short while getting it of your back. Wink
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital and HC/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, DIY Roon Server & Roon Endpoint running AudioLinux Headless, Phasure Lush^2 USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Uptone Audio etherREGEN, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro CI, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands
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#22
(18-Sep-2014, 20:59)Rufus McDufus Wrote:
(18-Sep-2014, 20:08)Eddye Wrote:
(18-Sep-2014, 20:03)Rufus McDufus Wrote:
(18-Sep-2014, 19:56)Eddye Wrote:
(18-Sep-2014, 18:39)Rufus McDufus Wrote: But wouldn't having UPnP in addition to AIR give you more freedom? Wink

Only if it's both, and if one chooses to use UPnP they would be stuck with whatever player Devialet creates for the amps.

There's plenty of free and robust UPnP/DLNA control points and servers. All I ask is for renderer support in the Devialet. It's not hugely complicated. It doesn't even have to be UPnP, other client/server protocols are available.
Player/renderer, whatever you want to call it. If it's going to be implemented in the amp, that's what you have to use.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean. They're almost certainly not going to implement UPnP to the exclusion of AIR.
I also don't think Devialet will exclude AIR. I'll try to explain what I mean: Let's say Devialet implements UPnP next to AIR, the renderer will have to be programmed into the Devialet amp, so if you choose to use UPnP, you have to use that renderer. You'll only have a choice what server you use. With AIR you're still free to use whatever server and whatever client you want. (I hope that clears it up a bit, if not, you're just going to have to learn Dutch Smile)
Devialet 200 <> Bowers & Wilkins 805 Diamond <> Aurender N100 <> Clearaudio Concept MC <> Audioquest Rocket 44/Coffee USB

The Netherlands
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#23
(18-Sep-2014, 22:56)Gurux Wrote: I assume that a lot of the people who are happy with their computers have simply never tried a NAS / UPnP streamer setup.

As for the ones who prefer JRiver to n-Stream or Kinsky, I confess that I am puzzled. How can this ongoing beta (on my iMac) full of bugs, crashing constantly and to my ears sounding worse than iTunes be compared to rock solid solutions like Kinsky or n-Stream? I might have an above average set-up with a managed Cisco switch doing the hard work or delivering the bits from my NAS (good cabling, link aggregation, jumbo frames etc) but I have never experienced as much as a glitch or a hiccup with any of the two platforms. Yes, I had to restart my NDS (but funny enough never my NDX) once. But jRiver is giving me headaches every time I try to use it. And converting my hundreds of FLAC albums to an iTunes friendly format is simply not acceptable...

I sympathise with many of the points you make but as a recent convert to Devialet from Naim my experience has been very different to yours. I bought a D200 in June because I think it offers exceptional sound quality at a very fair price. I find it better in almost every respect than my previous Naim NDX/XPS2/Hi-Line/282/HICAP/200/Fraim system which cost nearly three times as much.

From a usability/maintainability point of view I would prefer to have a dedicated streamer for which the manufacturer takes responsibility for all the issues of software integration and upgrades. But that often comes at a high price - particularly loss of flexibility in terms of integration with services like Spotify and Qobuz e.g. Naim made statements about/"promised" Spotify integration two years ago and have still failed to deliver.

Streamers and associated ethernet networks aren't without their problems too - just look at the endless posts on the Naim and Linn Forums or on Computeraudiophile. I used n-Stream with my NDX for a year and still use it ocasionally. I found it generally robust but rather staid and inflexible. I have had to re-start my NDX several times (perhaps once every 4-6 weeks on average) and the software update process was very poor.

I am very happy with AIR 2.1.2 which I find extremely robust - even when streaming 24-bit files via wi-fi I get no drop-outs and I'm only using a cheap Netgear modem/wi-fi router. The sound quality compares very favourably with NDX/SPDIF which is why I use AIR most of the time.

There have been plenty of warnings about the instability of JRiver on OSX which is why I've stayed away from it.

In my experience it's a fairly trivial and quick task to convert FLAC to AIFF using the batch capabilities of XLD and the results sound-wise are indistinguishable. Not a surprise if AIR does convert everything to WAV anyway.

@Antoine - if I may say so, I thought yours was a very well thought-out and well-written post Smile
IMac macOS 10.15.3 (no link to Devialet Sad ) / MacBook Pro Retina OS X 10.14.4 / Linn LP12 / Devialet 200 Wilson Benesch Discovery. 
Qobuz Desktop Latest Version / Audirvana 3.2.18 / Audirvana Remote / iTunes 12.9 / AIR 3.0.4 / Wi-Fi / FW 8.1.0 / SAM 50%
Cambridge, UK (Updated 27th February, 2020)
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#24
I have most sympathy for the owners of dual D-Premieres who made that purchase in the months before the announcement of the 240.

Ouch !!!!

Presumably there will come a time when the next hardware upgrade is on offer and we will need to consider whether to stay on the "free" firmware upgrade path. It is up to D to make the firmware upgrades as enticing as possible to keep our interest up. For 170 owners, like me, the last (first) firmware upgrade was a ripper. However, D's stated intention to release these significant firmware upgrades at 6 monthly intervals falls short of reality. 170 > 200 has been the only significant release in the 14 months of my ownership.

Moral of the story - get in early.
Using the D-P as the example. From introduction to the announcement of the 240 was about 3 years with around another year within which it was possible to participate in the hardware upgrade.
D200, Magico S1's, Antipodes DX
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#25
(19-Sep-2014, 09:24)PhilP Wrote: <cut>

@Antoine - if I may say so, I thought yours was a very well thought-out and well-written post Smile

Thank you Phil, English is not my native language but I always try hard to get the message across in the best way. Smile
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital and HC/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, DIY Roon Server & Roon Endpoint running AudioLinux Headless, Phasure Lush^2 USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Uptone Audio etherREGEN, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro CI, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands
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#26
Antoine, I am afraid your post not only doesn't help me at all but it is every bit as arrogant and condescending as Devialet's own.

The naysayers always have two arguments:

Argument no.1 What's the big deal with this NAS and UPnP business, my computer works as well?!

Obviously you don't know what a NAS is and what it does if you compare it to your low power computer. Let me tell you: the NAS works 100%, 24/7, until it fails (after many years) or becomes obsolete and then you buy another. Like a streamer, whatever is inside the box, whatever software works in the background - you don't need to know or worry about. You pay a high admission fee for a decent box because you actually buy the work of a competent team of engineers who's sole purpose is to make sure that your box delivers the goods. You don't have to tweak anything (although some people do). You just transfer your media onto the box and all your files become available, whenever, wherever, at the push of a button. In my many years of QNAP ownership I have never had a failure, touch wood. I have never had to restart anything, I have never missed a note. And I have never spent more than 30 seconds clicking "update" every few months.


Argument no.2 I had the X streamer and I had soooo many problems, like having to restart it once a month or having to go through a complicated routine to update it once a year. I repeat my personal experience: with a proper network I have never had as much as a glitch. I had to restart my NDS which was on an early firmware (I was one of the first to have one) once.

I am not a novice in computers, I have to use them a lot at work and yet I hate them for anything other than...computing.

If I would take them seriously as multimedia centres I would have to have one optimised for video playback, one for audio playback, one for storing my media, one for every day computing, one for...

The unfortunate soul who tries to stream audio content soon finds out that some software players sound better than others, some drivers / interfaces / inputs are better than others, some drivers are better than others, some hard drives are better than others, some CPU's are better than others - should I continue?

Then of course optimising the computer for playback is an endlessly time consuming business where one has to disable as many services as possible, maybe tweak one or two things in the registry, try various drivers and configurations, update various drivers and programs every few months and so on. This forum and others paint a clear picture of the phenomenon - people try various players with various drivers with various interfaces with various... and they always look for more. And they always spend a little fortune in the process, this USB card and that 3000£ USB cable and the 900£ fanless power supply and...

I personally went as far as a Hammerfall DSP if you know what I'm talking about and a truly wonderful digital interface that was. Except I spent a good couple of months of my life and quite a bit of money building a computer from scratch for it and when the job was done and I sat like God admiring my creation I had to accept that the no fuss digital output of my then NDX sounded at least as good.

And don't even get me started with my video experiments.

Yes, that low power computer of yours will do the job. But I don't have the time and energy to fiddle with it anymore. I don't want a computer in my lounge. I don't think computers belong to a hifi rack, whether Mac Mini's, Maxi's, low power or supercomputers. I don't want the hassle of incompatibilities, blue screens of death, driver updates that break the sound chain, white noise, pink noise or any other sort of noise beyond music. I want to press play and play my music.

Even if someone had to restart his / her NDX every 4-5 weeks, I find it much more acceptable than this hell of trying to get something like JRiver working. I already had a catastrophic failure of my OS soon after I installed 19 and the only solution was to restore the computer from a Time Machine backup. Even when it works, it is a mixture of crashing, playing music in slow motion when switching to a HD format after listening to RedBook, ignoring commands, breaking connection with my iPad etc. And it takes a good couple of seconds, on my i7 iMac, between a command and a response from the player, if any.

And no, I am not planning to go back to Windows any time soon.

In the end put it this way: the computer spoils the experience for me. If you want to spend your life fiddling with your Windows computer feel free to do it. I want to enjoy my music in my lounge and the only piece of IT tech I accept in my music sanctuary is an iPad. Unlike many of you I love the Linn interface. I think their Klimax DSM line is the best streaming experience money can buy. And DAC. And HDMI player. And Airplay player. But I don't want another box. Another power socket. Another couple of cables. My Devialet can do it. Why doesn't it?
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#27
Me sounding arrogant would sound like: buy an analog amp and a CD player and you're done. Wink

I'm sorry but I am not going to respond in depth to your reply, let's agree to disagree. I am an IT guy and understand the issues one could face but to me you come across as someone who's currently thinking in problems, not solutions. It would be a waste of time for me to counter your arguments. The choices you make are yours, and yours alone and if your mind is made up it's a done deal. Good luck in finding the/an optimal solution for yourself.

edit: there is one thing I do like to say; with AIR there is no real -need- for optimizing a computer based platform. It is something some people (including myself) like to do when all is running smooth. It's nothing more than trying to squeeze out a few extra percent of performance out of the setup but without it it is fine as well. In short you reading about people here doing this doesn't mean you have to. If a closed platform like the Linn DS's together with a pre-configured NAS gives you more peace of mind, simply admit to that and go for it.

You wrote: "My Devialet can do it. Why doesn't it?". I'd say if it could it would! If it maybe can in the future is nothing more than a nice bonus but not really something I'd wait for since you have little to no influence (let alone certainty) in it becoming available.
PS Audio P3, Shunyata ΞTRON Alpha Digital and HC/Furutech power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, DIY Roon Server & Roon Endpoint running AudioLinux Headless, Phasure Lush^2 USB cable, Audioquest Diamond RJ/E ethernet, Uptone Audio etherREGEN, Mutec MC-3+ USB, Shunyata ΞTRON Anaconda Digital XLR AES/EBU, Devialet Expert 250 Pro CI, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112. More detail here.

The Netherlands
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#28
You are right Antoine, I have just ordered a Moon Mind 180D because it seems to be the best sensibly priced streaming transport for Devialet.

Again, Windows doesn't appeal to me and I see that you are running an Audiophile Optimiser (a 100€ software) over a Microsoft Server R2 (which to my knowledge is a couple of hundred) with JRiver which is another 50 bucks piece of software which also charges a fee for each generational upgrade. Adding to that the cost of hardware your solution looks neither exactly cheap nor quite straightforward.

I continue to view UPnP as a much simpler, more elegant and enjoyable solution and at least on par, sound quality wise, with Air.
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#29
(23-Sep-2014, 00:58)Gurux Wrote: I continue to view UPnP as a much simpler, more elegant and enjoyable solution and at least on par, sound quality wise, with Air.

I guess it is what one gets used to. As a music lover who was on an aeroplane most weeks I was delighted to swap my heavy case full of media for my portable player for an iPod with its weightless supply of music Smile
This meant I became familiar with iTunes right at the beginning, and whilst it is far from perfect familiarity leads me to prefer it to everything else I have tried since.
When I experimented with streaming music at home one of the systems I tried (for about a week) was the Linn Klimax DS.
It was counter intuitive to me and the supplied ripNAS needed rebooting too often to be acceptable.
I gave up on it and went for a CD player with integral USB DAC (Resolution audio Cantata) which sounded better and was much more convenient for me to use.

So my experience, and therefore opinion, is the exact opposite of yours. If Devialet added some sort of UPnP functionality I would probably not even try it...
Devialet Original d'Atelier 44 Core, Job Pre/225, Goldmund PH2, Goldmund Reference/T3f /Ortofon A90, Goldmund Mimesis 36+ & Chord Blu, iMac/Air, Lynx Theta, Tune Audio Anima, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, REL Studio. Dialog, Silver Phantoms, Branch stands, copper cables (mainly).
Oxfordshire

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#30
I think the keyword here is "expectation". Some people bought the Devialet due to the underlying (and as some will claim, spoken) promise of a one unit solution. To me that meant one unit in the living room connected to my home network of media (incl. music) and NAS in the server room. I have similar expectations and wishes for Devialet that Gurux have and did at the time of purchase base the decision on getting a streamer and room correction embedded in the unit.

Was this a naive decision? Maybe so, but it was still the decision I made based on my understanding of what was communicated. Is it fair to be dissatisfyed given that the promise is not delivered on? I would say so given that "promises" were made. Is it fair to say that I should just sell it if it doesn't meet my expectations? I would claim no, not as long as such a sale would represent a financial loss.

To me the issue is expectations not yet delivered on yet. That being said, I am very happy with my 250 and probably would have bought it again with what I know now, but then having had different expectations and thus being even more happy about it. And this to me is my main concern, a company not delivering on the expectations they seed. I sincerely hope this is about to change, I do want these guys to succeed...
QNAP TS219P II/ TIDAL-Hifi > Roon@mac-mini > AIR3-Cat6 > Devialet 250 > Audience AU24 SE > Gallo-3.5Ref (w/ SAM)
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