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Devialet and MQA
#31
(19-Jun-2020, 22:45)markush Wrote: MQA on Tidal is increasingly becoming more and more available. 
To fully exploit it would be nice if Devialet could include fully encoding in the DAC as well as DSD.
Any idea how much effort / feasible this would be?

I seem to remember reading something, possibly a comment from one of the Devialet people quoted in one of the Munich show or Oxford Audio event threads, that implementing MQA processing would adversely affect the DAC/ADH processes in the Devialet so my guess is that it isn't likely to happen, or at least not with the current Expert Pro models. It may be more feasible in a new model specifically designed with MQA processing in mind.

There are 2 steps in MQA processing, what MQA calls the first and second unfolds. The first can be done in software so it could be a candidate for inclusion in Devialet firmware BUT the first unfold can already be done in Roon and Devialet already has an association with Roon that it promotes, and it can also be done in some external devices. Even if it were possible to easily include the first unfold in Devialet software I doubt Devialet would see much benefit in adding the first MQA unfold to their list of features. It's a lot easier and cheaper to promote Roon as the way for Devialet owners to access the first unfold. The second unfold can only be done in hardware so we aren't going to see that in any current model Devialet and I doubt we'll see it in a future model

I also don't think native DSD handling is possible with the current DAC.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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#32
I would add that having increasing availability of MQA on a Tidal having 3% of market share does not ensure adding its support on Devialets make sense. It does not make sense.
In addition all major players in streaming market aren’t willing to support MQA (and pay MQA license fees).
In addition savings of broadband capacity delivered by MQA are moot due to declining prices and development of faster wired and wireless infrastructure.
All others benefits of MQA can be achieved with FLAC without paying any licenses, increasing cost of hardware and burden of closed/proprietary format.

I am against implementing MQA on Deviatet. I would rather see support for DSD128. In fact I would like to see all bugs fixed first, followed by development of cardless/offline configurator.
Fanless HdPlex (HQPlayer) -> Merging Hapi -> Genelec 8351B
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#33
(19-Jun-2020, 23:30)David A Wrote:
(19-Jun-2020, 22:45)markush Wrote: MQA on Tidal is increasingly becoming more and more available. 
To fully exploit it would be nice if Devialet could include fully encoding in the DAC as well as DSD.
Any idea how much effort / feasible this would be?

I seem to remember reading something, possibly a comment from one of the Devialet people quoted in one of the Munich show or Oxford Audio event threads, that implementing MQA processing would adversely affect the DAC/ADH processes in the Devialet so my guess is that it isn't likely to happen, or at least not with the current Expert Pro models. It may be more feasible in a new model specifically designed with MQA processing in mind.

There are 2 steps in MQA processing, what MQA calls the first and second unfolds. The first can be done in software so it could be a candidate for inclusion in Devialet firmware BUT the first unfold can already be done in Roon and Devialet already has an association with Roon that it promotes, and it can also be done in some external devices. Even if it were possible to easily include the first unfold in Devialet software I doubt Devialet would see much benefit in adding the first MQA unfold to their list of features. It's a lot easier and cheaper to promote Roon as the way for Devialet owners to access the first unfold. The second unfold can only be done in hardware so we aren't going to see that in any current model Devialet and I doubt we'll see it in a future model

I also don't think native DSD handling is possible with the current DAC.
David - your memory is almost right!  See link below:

https://devialetchat.com/Thread-UK-event-with-Mathieu-Pernot-17-July?pid=85585#pid85585

@markush - It really is not worth worrying about Devialet incorporating MQA.  Firstly, it looks pretty clear that they are not going to do it.  Secondly, you can play MQA with a Devialet; Roon or Tidal will do the first unfold (the important bit), and if you really want to optimise further, you can use HQPlayer, which can both do the "second unfold" upsampling, and add a filter specifically designed for use with MQA.  Thirdly, many say that versus normal PCM/FLAC, some MQA tracks sound better, some sound worse.  So unless you want to keep A/B testing tracks, you are probably just as well off keeping with good old FLAC. (or similar)  Fourthly, I would tend to agree with @maxijazz, and to add to this, apparently MQA's great hope was a link with the one of "big boys" of streaming. Apple & Spotify are not interested, and now that Amazon Music HD is up and running without MQA, it looks to me like the future for MQA is looking very uncertain.

So if you like MQA there are some very solid ways of optimising your system to enjoy it whilst it is here, but I would not worry too much about Devialet's plans.

As an aside, I was looking at this review of the MQA capable Mytek Brooklyn Bridge.  OK, a very different product, but it does indicate that in some cases MQA implementation can be problematic.  If Devialet were to do it, I would not be 100% confident that they would not mess things up completely! 

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/mytek-d...ac/?page=2
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#34
As a Devialet owner I really wish that Devialet stays as far away as possible from the intellectual fraud that MQA is!

Jean-Marie
MacBook Air M2 -> RAAT/Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#35
Devialet will always stay as far as possible from things that make them develop new challenging software for cool features Smile. Because they are really very bad and slow at developing software.
Stereo Setup: Synology DS214Play NAS/Internet sources>> Supra CAT8 >> Ubiquiti Edge10X Switch>> Fiberoptical Cable >> SOTM SNH-10G Switch(S-Booster LPS) >> Supra CAT8 >> Euphony v4(Stylus with Qobuz, Tidal) running on RAM >> SOTM SNH-10G >> Supra CAT8 >> Mercury Streamer (GentooPlayer, MPD+UpMpdCli  running on RAM) + Fiio PL50 LPS >>  Mogami Gold AES XLR >> Devialet 220 Pro >> Echole Omnia Speaker/Jumper Cables >> B&W 804D3 Speakers on IsoAcoustics GAIA-II

Headphone Setup: Synology DS214Play NAS(CAT8) >> Ubiquiti Edge10X Switch>> Fiberoptical Cable >> SOTM SNH-10G Switch(S-Booster LPS) >> Supra CAT8 >> Euphony v4( Stylus with Qobuz, Tidal) running on RAM >> SOTM SNH-10G >> Supra CAT8 >>  Mercury Streamer(GentooPlayer , Mpd/UpMpdCli ) + Fiio PL50 LPS >>  RCA Coax >> Chord Hugo >> Fostex TH900 MK2
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#36
If anyone is still maybe a little undecided re the merits of MQA, the video linked below is a must watch.  In fact, it is well worth watching even if you strong view on the subject.

The video is 38 minutes long, but it really is worth 38 minutes of your time if you are remotely interested in this kind of thing, this is top class stuff.  I also love the way that this guy managed to release some music with audio test signals surreptitiously embedded in the music to get around the fact that MQA prohibit testing of this kind and will not release an MQA decoder to anyone for testing.  A little dishonest and sneaky perhaps, but I forgive him now that I see what he has discovered, he is not the most sneaky and dishonest party here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRjsu9-Vznc&t=2s

In earlier posts I have suggested that using Roon or Tidal to do the first "unfold" for MQA, then use HQPlayer for upsampling and a suitable MQA filter, might be a decent workaround if you really want to play MQA with a Devialet amp.  One interesting takeaway from the above video is that this is actually be technically superior to using a DAC with a full MQA decoder.  (From about 27 minutes in the video, but you might want to watch the earlier parts of the video to get the full context.)

OK, I had not fully worked out the last part out for myself, but hey, you have to get lucky every now and again.   Angel
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#37
I posted this in another thread, but since this is a MQA thread I'll post it here too with some additional comments.
I have recently learned, through a support case I submitted on the Roon forum https://community.roonlabs.com/t/no-mqa-...old/155440 , that a stream to an endpoint that supports max 48kHz will not allow decoding of MQA. If the device or DAC does not support 88.2 and 96kHz, MQA first unfold will not be performed by Roon. Sending output to HQPlayer per @Confused's suggestion will most likely work around a limitation like this (I've never used HQP so I don't know...).
With the current RAAT on Phantoms limited to 48lHz one can not play unfolded MQA directly. On Expert amps this is not an issue of course.
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250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#38
(17-Apr-2021, 10:52)ogs Wrote: I posted this in another thread, but since this is a MQA thread I'll post it here too with some additional comments.
I have recently learned, through a support case I submitted on the Roon forum https://community.roonlabs.com/t/no-mqa-...old/155440 , that a stream to an endpoint that supports max 48kHz will not allow decoding of MQA. If the device or DAC does not support 88.2 and 96kHz,  MQA first unfold will not be performed by Roon. Sending output to HQPlayer per @Confused's suggestion will most likely work around a limitation like this (I've never used HQP so I don't know...).
With the current RAAT on Phantoms limited to 48lHz one can not play unfolded MQA directly. On Expert amps this is not an issue of course.

Yes, my HQPlayer suggestion was specifically related to use with an Expert amp.

As an experiment, I tried setting HQPlayer to 48khz and playing an MQA file from Roon.  This works in part.  If you select the MQA filter in HQPlayer, then HQPlayer does not work due to the sample rate restriction.

However, keep HQPlayer set to 48khz with no oversampling, then you can then play MQA in Roon with the first "unfold":

   


With all that said, having watched the video in my earlier post, I am at a bit of a loss as to why anyone would want to bother.

EDIT:

Actually, it does not work at all, turn off the upsampling filter in HQPlayer, set HQPlayer to 48khz, and it still outputs 88.2. I am not quite sure why it does not work, but I tried a number of filters but none of them would downsample to 48khz.

   
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#39
Nice video, thanks @Confused to have shared it.

It nicely confirm through measurements what anyone with decent knowledge of digital signal processing theory could infer very quickly just when reading the patents.

The real news is how much pain MQA takes to make almost impossible to make measurements, and even more interesting their reaction when someone smarter manages to go through!

This anyway reinforces my wish that Devialet does not spend a single cent related to this intellectual fraud.

Jean-Marie
MacBook Air M2 -> RAAT/Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#40
MQA Worse Than Flac ?

https://youtu.be/pRjsu9-Vznc

https://www.reddit.com/r/TIdaL/comments/...of_mqa_by/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPfmWKji...el=PSAudio
Stereo Setup: Synology DS214Play NAS/Internet sources>> Supra CAT8 >> Ubiquiti Edge10X Switch>> Fiberoptical Cable >> SOTM SNH-10G Switch(S-Booster LPS) >> Supra CAT8 >> Euphony v4(Stylus with Qobuz, Tidal) running on RAM >> SOTM SNH-10G >> Supra CAT8 >> Mercury Streamer (GentooPlayer, MPD+UpMpdCli  running on RAM) + Fiio PL50 LPS >>  Mogami Gold AES XLR >> Devialet 220 Pro >> Echole Omnia Speaker/Jumper Cables >> B&W 804D3 Speakers on IsoAcoustics GAIA-II

Headphone Setup: Synology DS214Play NAS(CAT8) >> Ubiquiti Edge10X Switch>> Fiberoptical Cable >> SOTM SNH-10G Switch(S-Booster LPS) >> Supra CAT8 >> Euphony v4( Stylus with Qobuz, Tidal) running on RAM >> SOTM SNH-10G >> Supra CAT8 >>  Mercury Streamer(GentooPlayer , Mpd/UpMpdCli ) + Fiio PL50 LPS >>  RCA Coax >> Chord Hugo >> Fostex TH900 MK2
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