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My thoughts on Devialet
#11
I did not understand the intent of the original post too. Specially when you paid nothing close to MSRP with your demo 200 and new 220 :-)
Enjoy your Gryphon. I do understand that people want to try something new in this hobby every few years/months. There're bunch of Gryphon Diablo available in used market(hifishark.com). Hope you got a good deal and will not have a buyers remorse after couple of years. Now, if you would have said that you were tired of waiting for firmware update, then I would have understood your reasoning ;-)
Oppo-203 / SonicTransporter i7 Roon Core ->Trinnov Altitute-16->TAD M2500MK-1 -> TAD CR-1
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#12
Despite the software bugs that can be more or less annoying depending how much they are affecting your usage, I’m yet to see a product that matches its audio quality, functionalities, physical footprint in a similar price range...

Jean-Marie
MacBook Air M2 -> RAAT/Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#13
(28-Mar-2020, 09:03)Jean-Marie Wrote: Despite the software bugs that can be more or less annoying depending how much they are affecting your usage, I’m yet to see a product that matches its audio quality, functionalities, physical footprint in a similar price range...

Jean-Marie
Correction to myself,

yes such a product exists except for the turntable part: that’s a pair of Gold Phantoms properly setup. 

Jean-Marie
MacBook Air M2 -> RAAT/Air -> WiFi -> PLC -> Ethernet -> Devialet 220pro with Core Infinity (upgraded from 120) -> AperturA Armonia
France
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#14
I'm with @flohmann on this one.  I think the OP is confusing two separate issues.  One is retail undercutting, the other is a general dissatisfaction with how Devialet is treating its customers.  The dissatisfaction with Devialet thing I can understand, especially if the communication and software issues bother you.  Retail undercutting is a universal problem, and is in no way unique to Devialet.  I also note that some of the mathematics in the first couple of posts is a little random, with a $50K amp being worth $15K, versus 45 cents to the dollar.  Maybe this is referring to second-hand values?  Plus, as far as I am aware, even someone engaging in very aggressive retail undercutting could not offer a new product for a full 65% off retail.  Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm being picky here, maybe I have misunderstood.

Various "retail undercutting" practices are very common in this world of ours, and they range from what you might consider to be "healthy competition" to other practices that are actually illegal.  Mixed in with this is a moral element, which like most moral issues is never black and white.

The OP refers to getting "wine and donuts" from a dealer.  I suspect that what he means by this is that anything you get for a dealer is of a relatively superficial value, the dealer simply exists to act as a middle man and take a cut of your money.  This can be true.  If you want to buy product X, there are two ways you can buy product X, you might as well go with the lowest cost option, which could be the internet rather than a dealer in the posh part of town.  In the case of audio products, very often this is not the case.  The better dealers will offer a range of products, will let you listen to whatever combinations you want to try, will suggest alternatives to try, and in many cases will let you try kit at home.  If you are interested in making high cost long term audio purchases, this kind of service can be of enormous value in assisting an individual in getting the product that is right for them.  Of course, this kind of service can never come for free, the dealer has to pay for the rent on his "bricks and mortar" sore, staff costs, business rates, and all the rest of it.  To sustain all of this, as flohmann mentions, dealer mark-ups are necessarily high.

All of the above creates opportunities.  You could get a dealer (or trader) who decides that rather than go for the good service / high mark-up thing, he will try go low margin and high volume.  In some cases this might be legitimate, an authorised dealer who simply tries to offer a better deal than his rivals.  In other cases this might not be legitimate, an unauthorised dealer who has somehow managed to get a wholesale supply of a product, and sells at a significant discount in the hope of making enough sales to make it fanatically worthwhile.  There are a range of ways this can be done, some of which are legal, some of which are not.  Some traders involved in retail undercutting  (legal or otherwise) might aggressively pursue potential purchasers by following forums, seeing who might be interested in product X, send the a PM saying "hey, I can do you product X for 65% retail".  Maybe great news for the individual getting the offer, but very bad news for the dealers trying to offer a good service as it will suck a large number of sales globally to just one aggressive trader.  Many fine dealers offering good service can be damaged by practices like this, with just one guy profiteering.  Companies like Devialet, and others, will be aware of such practices , and where illegal will try to shut it down, so some of these deals and opportunities can be transient in nature.

We then have the more complex moral issues.  As an example, I could visit a number of dealers, have lots of demos, try some kit at home.  At the end of this, I might decide I want to buy a Devialet amplifier, or anything else for that matter.  On a moral level, it would be right to buy from the dealer that allowed you to audition the product, maybe let you try one at home to help you make up your mind.  On the other hand, you might consider that your moral responsibility is to provide the maximum for your family, so stuff the dealer, I'll buy a highly discounted item from the other guy.

The problem with retail undercutting is that it is destroying traditional retailers.  I was chatting to someone recently about the new TV that they had bought.  He mentioned two local retailers, he visited both, viewed the TV's there.  He then made the comment that the demonstrations and the knowledge of the sales staff where vastly better at one of these retailers than the other, he had huge praise for one particular sales guy, who apparently explained the differences in features well enough to change the mind of this individual in terms of which product he should buy.  After this, he bought the selected TV at the very best price he could find on the internet.  You can get away with this at the moment, but it does rely on a proportion of the population to buy from the traditional retailer.  If we all do it, the retailers will disappear.  In contrast to this tail, last time I bought a TV, I did lots of research, and narrowed my choice to two products.  I managed to find a dealer that offered both, I called them and asked if I could demo them together.  When I arrived at the store, they had set up the two TV's with identical Blu-ray players, they offered a choice of discs to watch, and they played identical sequences from the discs on each of the two TV's.  They even gave me a cup of coffee (but no donuts), which was appreciated at the time, although this was far from the most important part of the visit.  Interestingly, I arrived at the store 90% certain of which one I was going to buy, I had pretty much decided on my choice, but having seen them for real, I bought the other one.  The service in the store was top class, I knew that I could then leave and get the product cheaper elsewhere, but I did not, I bought it there and then.   

Before buying my first Devialet, I listened to a lot of rival products, pretty much everything I could practically get my hands on.  This meant engaging with a lot of very fine dealers, and I actually feel a little guilty that I could not give business to all of them.  I have benefitted from this though, when making my final choice I did it empowered by almost invaluable information, that is that in terms of the sound quality that I was looking for, it was Devialet over the many rivals that delivered what I was looking for.  Just knowing this is important.  If I had bought a Devialet on a hunch, from some guy "blowing these out his ass for 45 cents on the dollar", then I would always be wondering if maybe there was something else out there I might prefer.  Because of all this, when I do get to the point of actually parting with money, I will always give it to those offering the service I value, which may not be the entity offering the lowest price.  There is huge value in knowing clearly in your mind that you have bought the right product for what you are after.  As for those dealers where I auditioned products but I did not buy, I still remember that good service.  A while ago I was looking for something fairly obscure, I found a number of places on the 'net that could supply.  One of these was a dealer that I visited maybe five years ago but did not buy from because I preferred a rival product demonstrated elsewhere.  After all these years that good service was remembered, and a little bit of custom went their way.

I think this is right, others may take a different approach.  It is a free world, and we are all free to make our own moral and economic choices, as long as it is legal of course.
1000 Pro - KEF Blade - iFi Zen Stream - Mutec REF10 - MC3+USB - Pro-Ject Signature 12
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#15
I'll avoid the money discussion as there are many good comments already.

Devialet hardware is brilliant to the extent that one is led to think hardware and software people within Devialet does not share the same planet.

I just sold my 250 CI and I miss it's sound quality. It started as a D-Premier in early 2012 and has received all the upgrades along the way. This amp did not fail once(!) in all those years, has never broken anything (like speakers) and has survived and behaved nicely through multiple power losses. In addition there were lots of firmware updates and config changes. Always dependable. And the remote control is the best ever!

To begin with, wifi was a problem, but that was soon fixed with USB and ethernet. Those who used HDMI was a bit disappointed when USB and ethernet replaced it. Then problems really started. AIR was released when wifi was the only network interface. The thinking around the first version of AIR was good, but it was tied to Apple's iTunes. It did not work well. New versions of AIR was opened up to work with 'all' players though not working properly even if we now had wired ethernet.

Then the Phantom speakers were introduced with proprietary ethernet streaming that made it impossible to use with open standards. Devialet had again made fantastic hardware, but the software side attempted to control how users used the products, to lock them in. This alienated all but those that bought the PR and didn't know better. You know "The worlds most powerful wireless speaker" "3000 watts!". Not all of course. Many DC members have found ways to use Phantoms with good results.

Expert amps has S/PDIF, AES/EBU and USB, all open standards and was thus well covered. Phantoms had only TOSLINK as a standardized input, and even that was difficult to use. Especially if one wanted to avoid Dialog and Spark. When Roon was finally allowed to use the AIR protocol, Expert amps had a big problem solved. Phantom speakers were still difficult. DLNA is an open standard, but the standard is rather sloppy so you are not guaranteed it will work with your player. Roon RAAT is proprietary, but it is good and tightly controlled. If Devialet had given priority to open up how ethernet streaming worked or implement RAAT in Phantoms (even in Dialog) immediately, say two years ago, that would have changed the landscape.

The Phantom Reactor Custom is the first new Devialet product that has flexible inputs. By demand of those which it is aimed at, installers. Dante, AES/EBU and balanced analog + a web interface that lets you configure how you want to use it. If the original Phantom had similar flexibility I am sure I'd be a Phantom user now.

As it is I am not a Devialet user at all presently. It has taken Devialet too many years to understand that they can't control users the way they have attempted - by force. There are simply too many broken promises. Let's hope the future is better and Reactor Custom is a sign of the direction Devialet is aiming.
*
Devialetless!
Roon, ROCK/Audiolense XO/Music on NAS/EtherRegen/RoPieee/USPCB/ISORegen/USPCB/Sound Devices USBPre2/Tannoy GOLD 8
250 Pro CI, MicroRendu(1.4), Mutec MC-3+USB
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#16
(27-Mar-2020, 23:15)Womaz Wrote: I rarely post on here these days . I just have the lowly 200 model. Not the pro model , just the original .
I have never changed the firmware for years . I know Devialet have let a lot of people down , me included ......BUT this old 200 still sounds amazing to me . I used to replace my gear a lot. I think the 200 will stay with me until it stops working

I am on the same boat as you. Loving my D200 and the ancient firmware.
I just hope the day won't come that AIR won't be working anymore because of a change to Windows,
and Devialet might be leaving us in the cold. I don't trust them anymore.
Devialet Expert 200 (FW 7.1.3) / Magnepan 1.7i / Rel T5 / Foobar (WASAPI event 24bit) / AIR 3.0.1 public beta (best Air 3.x.x SQ by far)
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#17
Devialet has engineered amazing pieces of gear - both the Expert/Expert Pros and the Phantoms - that are all designed around upgradeable OS/firmware.  Seems like an awesome concept for customers and no doubt promotes sales BUT... in this business model, those upgrades are solely funded off of new sales, which is radically different than the software industry that is heavily immersed in subscription-based services.  To be able to do this well requires a very different expertise than what it takes to engineer a product like the Expert Pro.    In doing so, Devialet has essentially made us all customers with continuous expectations for as long as we own their products yet they are getting no further revenue from us.  Devialet does not seem to have (nor to understand) the software development, testing, communication and support infrastructure required to excel at the very business they've launched themselves into.    While they seem to be worse than many in this arena, I suspect that much of that negative perception stems from their unwillingness to communicate with us. 

Can/will they fix this?  Doesn't seem likely, does it.  At least, not on a grand scale. But in truth, I'd be a far more contented customer if they would simply fix the known bugs *AND* better communicate with us about it.  Hey, I can hope...
Devialet 440 Pro (two 220s)- Oracle CD transport - Kuzma Stabi S/Stogi S turntable - Von Schweikert VR-35 speakers - JPS SC3 SCs - PI Audio power conditioning -
Triode Wire Labs ICs and PCs - Roon on NUC 8i7beh running ROCK
Durham, NC USA
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#18
I am altso One of Them who leave devialet ,it start With i bye a expert 170 ,Wery glad it Sound Amasing, suddently i became expert 200 ,and still glad , software updates come , Then devialet show us all that we Can upgrade too 220 Pro, i was One of Them there say yes ,and sent my devialet too Paris , With a lot of euros. After that i , find out that ,software updates almost dissaperer, Phantom come, devialet show all there interesse about phantom ,and it was like expertline dissaperer, i have In the same time With many others ploblems With the phonostage , and Low output cartridges , Devialet want too help ,but What happend,many sent files too devialet showing hiss, but In the end devialet do nothing,all of that do that i Think , nooo anymore i bye a AVM A 6.3 With a DAC inside but no phonostage ,that mean that i Can go out and bye a phonostage i like, i know that AVM dont sent upgrade ,but that i know When i bye AVM .and AVM Sound great. All i want is not too say that devialet is bad , but the compagny i feel that they have there nose In the sky and forget us who put a lot of Money into the compagny. And When i not Stream ,have newer use Roon or Tidal , i have my cd rippes into my innuos , and i play vinyl ,and look film . And that is that .
AVM  8.3  Rosso volterra 2 ,speaker cable and other cable audio note , turntable tt2 de luxe , caridge clearaudio carisma mm, primare bd mrk 2 shyunata power generator,
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#19
Given the rumors of a pending release, let's hope it's sooner rather than later...
Devialet 440 Pro (two 220s)- Oracle CD transport - Kuzma Stabi S/Stogi S turntable - Von Schweikert VR-35 speakers - JPS SC3 SCs - PI Audio power conditioning -
Triode Wire Labs ICs and PCs - Roon on NUC 8i7beh running ROCK
Durham, NC USA
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#20
(28-Mar-2020, 10:11)Confused Wrote: I'm with @flohmann on this one.  I think the OP is confusing two separate issues.  One is retail undercutting, the other is a general dissatisfaction with how Devialet is treating its customers.  The dissatisfaction with Devialet thing I can understand, especially if the communication and software issues bother you.  Retail undercutting is a universal problem, and is in no way unique to Devialet.  I also note that some of the mathematics in the first couple of posts is a little random, with a $50K amp being worth $15K, versus 45 cents to the dollar.  Maybe this is referring to second-hand values?  Plus, as far as I am aware, even someone engaging in very aggressive retail undercutting could not offer a new product for a full 65% off retail.  Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm being picky here, maybe I have misunderstood.

Various "retail undercutting" practices are very common in this world of ours, and they range from what you might consider to be "healthy competition" to other practices that are actually illegal.  Mixed in with this is a moral element, which like most moral issues is never black and white.

The OP refers to getting "wine and donuts" from a dealer.  I suspect that what he means by this is that anything you get for a dealer is of a relatively superficial value, the dealer simply exists to act as a middle man and take a cut of your money.  This can be true.  If you want to buy product X, there are two ways you can buy product X, you might as well go with the lowest cost option, which could be the internet rather than a dealer in the posh part of town.  In the case of audio products, very often this is not the case.  The better dealers will offer a range of products, will let you listen to whatever combinations you want to try, will suggest alternatives to try, and in many cases will let you try kit at home.  If you are interested in making high cost long term audio purchases, this kind of service can be of enormous value in assisting an individual in getting the product that is right for them.  Of course, this kind of service can never come for free, the dealer has to pay for the rent on his "bricks and mortar" sore, staff costs, business rates, and all the rest of it.  To sustain all of this, as flohmann mentions, dealer mark-ups are necessarily high.

All of the above creates opportunities.  You could get a dealer (or trader) who decides that rather than go for the good service / high mark-up thing, he will try go low margin and high volume.  In some cases this might be legitimate, an authorised dealer who simply tries to offer a better deal than his rivals.  In other cases this might not be legitimate, an unauthorised dealer who has somehow managed to get a wholesale supply of a product, and sells at a significant discount in the hope of making enough sales to make it fanatically worthwhile.  There are a range of ways this can be done, some of which are legal, some of which are not.  Some traders involved in retail undercutting  (legal or otherwise) might aggressively pursue potential purchasers by following forums, seeing who might be interested in product X, send the a PM saying "hey, I can do you product X for 65% retail".  Maybe great news for the individual getting the offer, but very bad news for the dealers trying to offer a good service as it will suck a large number of sales globally to just one aggressive trader.  Many fine dealers offering good service can be damaged by practices like this, with just one guy profiteering.  Companies like Devialet, and others, will be aware of such practices , and where illegal will try to shut it down, so some of these deals and opportunities can be transient in nature.

We then have the more complex moral issues.  As an example, I could visit a number of dealers, have lots of demos, try some kit at home.  At the end of this, I might decide I want to buy a Devialet amplifier, or anything else for that matter.  On a moral level, it would be right to buy from the dealer that allowed you to audition the product, maybe let you try one at home to help you make up your mind.  On the other hand, you might consider that your moral responsibility is to provide the maximum for your family, so stuff the dealer, I'll buy a highly discounted item from the other guy.

The problem with retail undercutting is that it is destroying traditional retailers.  I was chatting to someone recently about the new TV that they had bought.  He mentioned two local retailers, he visited both, viewed the TV's there.  He then made the comment that the demonstrations and the knowledge of the sales staff where vastly better at one of these retailers than the other, he had huge praise for one particular sales guy, who apparently explained the differences in features well enough to change the mind of this individual in terms of which product he should buy.  After this, he bought the selected TV at the very best price he could find on the internet.  You can get away with this at the moment, but it does rely on a proportion of the population to buy from the traditional retailer.  If we all do it, the retailers will disappear.  In contrast to this tail, last time I bought a TV, I did lots of research, and narrowed my choice to two products.  I managed to find a dealer that offered both, I called them and asked if I could demo them together.  When I arrived at the store, they had set up the two TV's with identical Blu-ray players, they offered a choice of discs to watch, and they played identical sequences from the discs on each of the two TV's.  They even gave me a cup of coffee (but no donuts), which was appreciated at the time, although this was far from the most important part of the visit.  Interestingly, I arrived at the store 90% certain of which one I was going to buy, I had pretty much decided on my choice, but having seen them for real, I bought the other one.  The service in the store was top class, I knew that I could then leave and get the product cheaper elsewhere, but I did not, I bought it there and then.   

Before buying my first Devialet, I listened to a lot of rival products, pretty much everything I could practically get my hands on.  This meant engaging with a lot of very fine dealers, and I actually feel a little guilty that I could not give business to all of them.  I have benefitted from this though, when making my final choice I did it empowered by almost invaluable information, that is that in terms of the sound quality that I was looking for, it was Devialet over the many rivals that delivered what I was looking for.  Just knowing this is important.  If I had bought a Devialet on a hunch, from some guy "blowing these out his ass for 45 cents on the dollar", then I would always be wondering if maybe there was something else out there I might prefer.  Because of all this, when I do get to the point of actually parting with money, I will always give it to those offering the service I value, which may not be the entity offering the lowest price.  There is huge value in knowing clearly in your mind that you have bought the right product for what you are after.  As for those dealers where I auditioned products but I did not buy, I still remember that good service.  A while ago I was looking for something fairly obscure, I found a number of places on the 'net that could supply.  One of these was a dealer that I visited maybe five years ago but did not buy from because I preferred a rival product demonstrated elsewhere.  After all these years that good service was remembered, and a little bit of custom went their way.

I think this is right, others may take a different approach.  It is a free world, and we are all free to make our own moral and economic choices, as long as it is legal of course.
I have not posted on our forum for quite a while because I am just enjoying the music and the great sound and happiness my Devialet 220 Pro CI brings into my life. I always enjoyed the good sense of culture and british humor in our forum and last but not least I really appreciated Confused well educated reply to the original post (which was out of question agressive and using slang language which I think we should avoid here). Thank you Confused!
iMac Core i9, Roon lifetime, Qobuz Sublime+, OPPO BDP-103EU, Kanex Pro HDMI Audio Extractor, Dual CS 617Q, Devialet 220 PRO Core Infinity, Bowers&Wilkins 804 D2, Oppo HA2, Sennheiser HD 800S, Living Room, Enjoy Listening, Germany
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