Phantom Gold doesn't support 192/24, surprising answer from support??

[quagga]

[...] The Phantom Reactors were from beginning specified to 24/96k. [...]

What I read from various sources said both Reactors (600 and 900 in recent naming) have 24bit/192kHz DAC
And here,
https://www.listeningpost.co.nz/assets/S...3454_1.pdf 
DAC  is shown as  24bits / 96 & 192kHz (I do not know what it means, I don't think  96 for 600 and 192 for 900 though) 

Now that Reactor 600 and 900 renewed as II 95 dB and II 98 dB, DAC is shown ifor both as 24 bits/96kHz

[quagga]

IMHO Devialet will at least explore a "hidden" setting to allow for a higher sample rate of 96kHz for people who want to try that out with their networking setup. Something like this could easily live on the web interface, so only those technically-inclined would even be confronted with the option.

Agreed... how about when the phantom is connected via Ethernet aka not wireless it should support higher quality formats...

I insist that UPnP ethernet is 24/192, on the golds....

After rereading specs and help pages etc. I tend to agree with this. 
Especially after I see in a Devialet help page where  UPnP is stated as  : 
- UPnp at 24bit-48khz or more 

"More" sounds 96kHz to me matching the internal DAC (maybe even during wireless UPnP? I do not think so but who knows)

[quagga]

I am considering buying a pair of Phantom Reactor 900s, well changed now into rather untidy name of Phantom II 98 dBs. That is why I am writing my observations regarding the reactors even though this is the forum fort he big brothers, nonetheless this is the best thread where sampling frequencies of new units are discussed, so thank you for your understanding. And almost all my finding sapply to classic phantoms (I) too. 

Here I would like to present my findings comparing newer versions to the recent ones. It's long but it is almost everything I found out so far, I try not to make a mistake anywhere to the best I can. Long but comprehensive. Hope it helps. 

I compared the differences in given specs and found foll:

Feature                                 Reactor  900                             II 98 dB                  

---

Stated Power                         900 watts PMPO (peak)              400 watts RMS (continuous)
Devialet DAC embedded in      ADH3 intelligence                       Devialet Intelligence Processor
Devialet Operating System      [we know OS 1, no spec]            2 (DOS 2) up to 24bits/48kHz
Internal DAC                         24bits/96kHz and 192kHz            24bits/96kHz
AirPlay                                  AirPlay                                      AirPlay 2
Roon                                    -                                               Ready (Hi-Res: 24bits/48kHz)
UPnP                                    UPnPRenderer[no spec]              UPnP Renderer (Hi-Res: 24bits/48kHz)
Analog/Optical jack input        (Up to 48kHz via analog              (Hi-Res: 24bits/48kHz)
                                             and up to 96kHz via optical)

Other info I found (not specific to reactors) , comments between brackets are mine. 

New features mentioned in Devialet Instagram  (DOS 2.12 required)
Night Mode [no idea]
24bit Hi-Res and CD-quality audio are now identified [whatever it means]
New accessory support: Arch [phono stage]

Things I read or heard somewhere:
-Now when an Ethernet cable between speaker and router is detected, speaker automatically chooses Ethernet and cuts its Wifi connection to router.
-Now lypsynch issues when connected to a TV is said to be tamed to an acceptable or good level.

     
Interesting info on Phantom Help page for PHANTOM PREMIER DOS2 (USING DEVIALET APP)
Under subject “Sound Quality and Streaming Services on Phantom”:
 
Devialet Phantom is currently compatible with the following streaming protocols:
•            Bluetooth up to 16-bit/44.1khz [contrary to specs given as 24bits/48kHz]
•            Airplay 1 up to 16-bit/44.1khz  [contrary to specs given as 24bits/48kHz]
•            Spotify Connect at 320 kbps  [it means highest mp3 quality I think]
•            UPnP at 24bit-48khz or more [more sounds to me 96kHz at least, if so this is good, DAC is 96kHz anyway, 192kHz won’t help even if possible with UPnP]

Some Q&A in Devialet Facebook page:
 
Question:
Is there a sonic (or otherwise) difference between the new Phantom I 108dB and the old Phantom Gold? New technology?
Reply:
The new Phantom 108 dB features the latest hardware with the next generation of Devialet Intelligence Processor, embedding signal processing and amplification performance in a unique System on a Chip (SoC) for high-performance audio whenever you need it. We've also worked on a new version of Devialet DOS2 to bring you more ways to play with Phantom and stream Hi-Res files through Roon, or enjoy multi-room with AirPlay2. A newly designed remote control is included with every Phantom I for a crisp user experience, wherever you are seated.
      
Question:
Is the DAC the same?      
Reply: [a vague response]                                       
All the audio processing and amplification is now held a single chip: SAM, DAC, Magic Wire, Class A, ADH... By optimizing them, we can achieve the best possible audio performance right across the frequency spectrum. 
 
Question: is it possible that this new technology was already used in late 2020 Phantoms? I have noticed some improvements (better energy efficiency, less heat emmision) in my new Phantom which I bought last December..
Reply: [no reply from Devialet]
 
Comment from a user:
The new version of the devialet remote is awesome. Love it, compared to the first.
Dual silver phantoms, stereo configuration is what it is paired with.
 

My Wrap-up conclusions:
I understand that it is possible to use play 24bits/96kHz files using internal DAC rated 24bits/96kHz at its full potential when connected either by UPnP (ethernet and unlikely but also Wifi) or by using Optical Jack input in Optical Direct Mode (with setting it in the app). All other connections are limited to 48kHz or lower. However I came to know that 96kHz is not meant that much of a difference nowadays with good processors, a high quality DAC matters more than its sampling frequency between 48/96 for example, a bad DAC at high resolution is worse than a very good one at lower. I am convinced. And I think Devialet chose this path, downgrading the specs nonetheless, to ensure faster processing, opening doors to  more capabilities such as good lipsynch, maybe less wireless connection dropouts (we will see that), handling different music in multiroom speakers, maybe even better time matching of stereo pairs (just a wild guess), and possible better communication between speaker pairs either via Wifi or mains (PLC). Maybe new versions are better in some other regards such as stability. I also suspect latest Phantoms sold under previous names and not I and II are also to the same specs of I and II especially the first black version which is the Reactor.
 
A pair of Reactors (IIs)  ticks a lot of boxes in my apartment, in a midsized room, speakers would be 6-8 feet distant to front wall and 2-3 feet away from the side walls, they sit low and does not hinder line of sight within the room, being  wireless they would be tidy, black IIs (reactors) are minimalistic and beautiful with the black legs. No subwoofer would be needed obviously. Seemingly fun speakers satisfying viscerally with its crisp and deep bass.
 
I see a lot of downsides though and I am not sure, a bit uneasy to make the move: unreliable wireless performance, many unknown technical details, unserviceability (a big concern after post-warranty period), no room correction, low frequency bump shadowing mids, a bit boxy sounding compared to similar active speakers (subjective),  company not building trust in me  with their covered statements, cheesy marketing tactics embarrasing themselves against audiophiles while not feeling ashamed as long as they can sell products to pretentious and/or rich people who are the target potential customers anyway, Devialet being a partially Louis Vuitton venture. And lack of full specs of their components and operation technology (not asking for their secrets but I need to know why the DAC is now suddenly 96kHz instead of 192, why optical-in is limited to 48 while DAC can operate at 96kHz, are there different branded parts used in different units of the same model regardless of production date etc. 
 
Well, I am convinced that unless one has issues with signals and softwares,  she/he would be a happy user.  
Enjoy your units and thank you bearing with me.  (and feel free to agree/object)

[struts]

From reading many posts here in the forum and all so over in the Roon forum there are a number of things happening, depending on the different versions of Phantoms. The Phantom Golds of the first years 2016 to maybe 2019 accept through the optical input 24/192k. Phantom Silver and White Phantoms also accepted 24/192k. The Phantom Premier Classic replaced then the White Phantoms and the Silver Phantoms were not offered anymore, except for refurbished ones. We heard from a number of people with newer Phantoms Premier and lately also from Phantom Gold users that the optical only accepts 24/96k, same as the optical input from the Dialog. This probably has to do with lowers spect components. Since optical in general is originally specified to 24/96k by Sony the higher resolution only can be achieved with a careful design and better optical components/connectors. That’s where there can be a bottleneck in the latest Phantoms on the hardware. The Phantom Reactors were from beginning specified to 24/96k. Now Phantom Premiers (Gold and Classic) are Phantom I and Phantom Reactors are Phantom II. That they only accept 24/48k has to do with downsampling and not with the optical input electronics. Therefore we could assume that the direct optical mode plays at least 24/96k or even 24/192k. The internal DAQ of the Phantoms is a TI chip that can handle 24/192k PCM, as almost all DAQs can. It wouldn’t make any sense for Devialet not to continue to build in the current TI chip but an inferior chip as they are dead cheap. And why should they invest into making a different design only to disappoint their customers? I’m very sure that the specs limitation has to do with quality of service of wireless networks and therefore is related to software.

I agree with some of your analysis @streamy, but there also seem to be a number of assumptions here, at least some of which I believe are incorrect.

1.  The optical input.  We know that earlier phantom models accepted S/PDIF input at 24/192 and then later this was reduced to 24/96 but afaik we don't know what Phantoms have ever done with that input, and specifically any spectral content above 24kHz.  As far as I know no reviewer has ever measured the acoustic output above 24kHz to see if signal above that frequency is actually being reproduced.  A lot of folks here are very upset that Devialet has "stolen" hi res capability from them but are we actually sure we were ever getting it?

2.  "Direct optical" mode.  We know it bypasses some of the circuitry and processing to reduce signal delay but afaik we don't know exactly which.  Some folks talk about it as if it bypasses everything and the photons somehow directly bombard the drive units creating high resolution sound.  Devialet has said that the DAC architecture in the new phantoms is 24/96-capable, but that under DOS 2 all inputs are limited to 24/48.  What we don't know is where the bottleneck is and whether a "direct optical" mode implemented in DOS 2 might be able to avoid it.

3.  One thing Devialet has said is that the hardware architecture in the new Phantoms (those sold as Phantom Is with the new matte finish, and by some accounts here maybe some late examples of the previous generation Phantom Classic/Gold with the gloss finish) has been substantially changed.  Instead of a COTS DAC chip the DAC and most other processing and amplification functions have been combined on a proprietary SoC which is more performant and more efficient (particularly more thermodynamically efficient).  So I disagree with your statement that "it wouldn't make any sense" to change.  Devialet has changed and while there are obviously some advantages to the new architecture unfortunately there are also apparently some disadvantages.

4.  Why suddenly limit DOS 2 to 48kS/s?  Here we are just speculating.  The new DAC architecture can apparently handle twice the sampling rate, maybe the entire SoC architecture can?  Is it a temporary restriction or a permanent one?  Does it have to do with stereo sync issues, multi-room or the ability to support wireless transport protocols?  We simply don't know.

5.  Finally, as the owner of "legacy" Phantoms (as pretty much all of us here are by definition), I wonder whether Devialet will devote any engineering resources to enabling any functionality (if indeed there is any), such as the ability to support hi resolution audio above 24/48, supported by the legacy "discrete" hardware architecture but not supported by the new SoC??

Happy to be corrected if I have missed any facts/proof/measurements which contradict any of the above.

[alandbush]

From reading many posts here in the forum and all so over in the Roon forum there are a number of things happening, depending on the different versions of Phantoms. The Phantom Golds of the first years 2016 to maybe 2019 accept through the optical input 24/192k. Phantom Silver and White Phantoms also accepted 24/192k. The Phantom Premier Classic replaced then the White Phantoms and the Silver Phantoms were not offered anymore, except for refurbished ones. We heard from a number of people with newer Phantoms Premier and lately also from Phantom Gold users that the optical only accepts 24/96k, same as the optical input from the Dialog. This probably has to do with lowers spect components. Since optical in general is originally specified to 24/96k by Sony the higher resolution only can be achieved with a careful design and better optical components/connectors. That’s where there can be a bottleneck in the latest Phantoms on the hardware. The Phantom Reactors were from beginning specified to 24/96k. Now Phantom Premiers (Gold and Classic) are Phantom I and Phantom Reactors are Phantom II. That they only accept 24/48k has to do with downsampling and not with the optical input electronics. Therefore we could assume that the direct optical mode plays at least 24/96k or even 24/192k. The internal DAQ of the Phantoms is a TI chip that can handle 24/192k PCM, as almost all DAQs can. It wouldn’t make any sense for Devialet not to continue to build in the current TI chip but an inferior chip as they are dead cheap. And why should they invest into making a different design only to disappoint their customers? I’m very sure that the specs limitation has to do with quality of service of wireless networks and therefore is related to software.

I agree with some of your analysis @streamy, but there also seem to be a number of assumptions here, at least some of which I believe are incorrect.

1.  The optical input.  We know that earlier phantom models accepted S/PDIF input at 24/192 and then later this was reduced to 24/96 but afaik we don't know what Phantoms have ever done with that input, and specifically any spectral content above 24kHz.  As far as I know no reviewer has ever measured the acoustic output above 24kHz to see if signal above that frequency is actually being reproduced.  A lot of folks here are very upset that Devialet has "stolen" hi res capability from them but are we actually sure we were ever getting it?

2.  "Direct optical" mode.  We know it bypasses some of the circuitry and processing to reduce signal delay but afaik we don't know exactly which.  Some folks talk about it as if it bypasses everything and the photons somehow directly bombard the drive units creating high resolution sound.  Devialet has said that the DAC architecture in the new phantoms is 24/96-capable, but that under DOS 2 all inputs are limited to 24/48.  What we don't know is where the bottleneck is and whether a "direct optical" mode implemented in DOS 2 might be able to avoid it.

3.  One thing Devialet has said is that the hardware architecture in the new Phantoms (those sold as Phantom Is with the new matte finish, and by some accounts here maybe some late examples of the previous generation Phantom Classic/Gold with the gloss finish) has been substantially changed.  Instead of an OTS DAC chip the DAC and most other processing and amplification functions have been combined on a proprietary SoC which is more performant and more efficient (particularly more thermodynamically efficient).  So I disagree with your statement that "it wouldn't make any sense" to change.  Devialet has changed and while there are obviously some advantages to the new architecture unfortunately there are also apparently some disadvantages too.

4.  Why limit DOS 2 to 48kS/s?  Here we are just speculating.  The new DAC architecture can apparently handle twice the sampling rate, maybe the entire SoC architecture can?  Is it a temporary restriction or a permanent one?  Does it have to do with stereo sync issues, multi-room or the ability to support wireless transport protocols?  We simply don't know.

5.  Finally, as the owner of "legacy" Phantoms (as pretty much all of us here are by definition), I wonder whether Devialet will devote any engineering resources to enabling functionality, such as the ability to support hi resolution audio above 24/48, supported by the legacy "discrete" hardware architecture but not supported by the new SoC??

Happy to be corrected if I have missed any facts/proof/measurements which contradict any of the above.

A nice summary.

Ideally, it would be nice to see specifications similar to those provided by MiniDSP.

Eg.

Audio Input Connectivity

Unbalanced analog input, RCA terminated
Stereo Digital Inputs: TOSLINK (optical)
Stereo USB audio input: USB Audio
Supported ASCR (Asynchronous Sampling Rate Conversion): 20~216kHz

Internal Processing resolution & Sample rate: 32 bit / 96kHz

Why down sample?  I think this overview might be informative.

[struts]

Why down sample?  I think this overview might be informative.

I suspect you’re right. I would be surprised however if this was new and that ASRC wasn’t part of the previous generation Phantom architecture. But as is so often the case with Devialet, we just don’t know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[howcho]

From reading many posts here in the forum and all so over in the Roon forum there are a number of things happening, depending on the different versions of Phantoms. The Phantom Golds of the first years 2016 to maybe 2019 accept through the optical input 24/192k. Phantom Silver and White Phantoms also accepted 24/192k. The Phantom Premier Classic replaced then the White Phantoms and the Silver Phantoms were not offered anymore, except for refurbished ones. We heard from a number of people with newer Phantoms Premier and lately also from Phantom Gold users that the optical only accepts 24/96k, same as the optical input from the Dialog. This probably has to do with lowers spect components. Since optical in general is originally specified to 24/96k by Sony the higher resolution only can be achieved with a careful design and better optical components/connectors. That’s where there can be a bottleneck in the latest Phantoms on the hardware. The Phantom Reactors were from beginning specified to 24/96k. Now Phantom Premiers (Gold and Classic) are Phantom I and Phantom Reactors are Phantom II. That they only accept 24/48k has to do with downsampling and not with the optical input electronics. Therefore we could assume that the direct optical mode plays at least 24/96k or even 24/192k. The internal DAQ of the Phantoms is a TI chip that can handle 24/192k PCM, as almost all DAQs can. It wouldn’t make any sense for Devialet not to continue to build in the current TI chip but an inferior chip as they are dead cheap. And why should they invest into making a different design only to disappoint their customers? I’m very sure that the specs limitation has to do with quality of service of wireless networks and therefore is related to software.

I agree with some of your analysis @streamy, but there also seem to be a number of assumptions here, at least some of which I believe are incorrect.

1.  The optical input.  We know that earlier phantom models accepted S/PDIF input at 24/192 and then later this was reduced to 24/96 but afaik we don't know what Phantoms have ever done with that input, and specifically any spectral content above 24kHz.  As far as I know no reviewer has ever measured the acoustic output above 24kHz to see if signal above that frequency is actually being reproduced.  A lot of folks here are very upset that Devialet has "stolen" hi res capability from them but are we actually sure we were ever getting it?

2.  "Direct optical" mode.  We know it bypasses some of the circuitry and processing to reduce signal delay but afaik we don't know exactly which.  Some folks talk about it as if it bypasses everything and the photons somehow directly bombard the drive units creating high resolution sound.  Devialet has said that the DAC architecture in the new phantoms is 24/96-capable, but that under DOS 2 all inputs are limited to 24/48.  What we don't know is where the bottleneck is and whether a "direct optical" mode implemented in DOS 2 might be able to avoid it.

3.  One thing Devialet has said is that the hardware architecture in the new Phantoms (those sold as Phantom Is with the new matte finish, and by some accounts here maybe some late examples of the previous generation Phantom Classic/Gold with the gloss finish) has been substantially changed.  Instead of a COTS DAC chip the DAC and most other processing and amplification functions have been combined on a proprietary SoC which is more performant and more efficient (particularly more thermodynamically efficient).  So I disagree with your statement that "it wouldn't make any sense" to change.  Devialet has changed and while there are obviously some advantages to the new architecture unfortunately there are also apparently some disadvantages.

4.  Why suddenly limit DOS 2 to 48kS/s?  Here we are just speculating.  The new DAC architecture can apparently handle twice the sampling rate, maybe the entire SoC architecture can?  Is it a temporary restriction or a permanent one?  Does it have to do with stereo sync issues, multi-room or the ability to support wireless transport protocols?  We simply don't know.

5.  Finally, as the owner of "legacy" Phantoms (as pretty much all of us here are by definition), I wonder whether Devialet will devote any engineering resources to enabling any functionality (if indeed there is any), such as the ability to support hi resolution audio above 24/48, supported by the legacy "discrete" hardware architecture but not supported by the new SoC??

Happy to be corrected if I have missed any facts/proof/measurements which contradict any of the above.

Excellent post Strutsen. As I have suggested to Devialet, why not keep Spark as a download with Dos1 as software, tweak and add cheap and low hanging fruit from Dos2 development or simple keep it as the last Dos1 itteration there were? Add a disclaimer about needing a Dialog, possible issues on your intranet, expect no updates ever and everyone would be happy?

[struts]

Excellent post Strutsen. As I have suggested to Devialet, why not keep Spark as a download with Dos1 as software, tweak and add cheap and low hanging fruit from Dos2 development or simple keep it as the last Dos1 itteration there were? Add a disclaimer about needing a Dialog, possible issues on your intranet, expect no updates ever and everyone would be happy?

That may work for some people but not for me. Roon is the heart of my music system at home. I have a zone in every room in the apartment (except the smallest ;-) so I have been waiting for RAAT support all along. RAAT at 24/48 is preferable to me to UPnP at 24/192 just because of the way my system is set up. Of course RAAT at 24/96 or 24/192 is what I was hoping for! But for others freezing on the last DOS 1 release might be a better option. YMMV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quagga]

I do not own a Devialet but I am quite surprised how obscure they are, no one seems to know what is going on inside these speakers. Strange things such as : Operating system specs lower than Input and DAC specs; seemingly everything downscaled to 48kHz in the end; specs mismatch between similar units due to different parts outsourced; unexpected lower specs in new iterations. Even though the new Reactors (officially, IIs) have the different hardware (that unified processor chip whatever) I have read in Devialet web page that DOS 2 was already in Reactors since 2018. !!! Well, I am dumbfounded. The more you dig the more you unearth new things hidden like Easter eggs.

I could not have a chance to listen to them live yet, however sound is reported to be fantastic, with an emphasis on bass response in sacrifice of some clarity of mids and trebles, probably not as bad as it sounds though. In youtube videos comparing it to others I got a feeling that Reactors sound a bit boxy but I am sure the actual thing is much better. Youtube videos provide only small clues, sometimes in he wrong direction.

I think the most important contribution to sound quality of a music is obtained by having a master quality recording. Such music sounds extremely good with a big difference even in a car's OEM stereo through spotify on iphone. The rest, amps DAC speakers are really second to the quality of the recording.

Anyway Devialet is full of surprises. You never seem to know what you are buying, we tend to accept given specs as operating specs but it seems they state in their product pages the maximum capacities of various parts while we do not know how much of it is being put into use, as we found out not all of it. And you always carry the risk of bugs and some downgrades with firmgrade upgrades

[struts]

I do not own a Devialet but I am quite surprised how obscure they are, no one seems to know what is going on inside these speakers. Strange things such as : Operating system specs lower than Input and DAC specs; seemingly everything downscaled to 48kHz in the end; specs mismatch between similar units due to different parts outsourced; unexpected lower specs in new iterations. Even though the new Reactors (officially, IIs) have the different hardware (that unified processor chip whatever) I have read in Devialet web page that DOS 2 was already in Reactors since 2018. !!! Well, I am dumbfounded. The more you dig the more you unearth new things hidden like Easter eggs.

I could not have a chance to listen to them live yet, however sound is reported to be fantastic, with an emphasis on bass response in sacrifice of some clarity of mids and trebles, probably not as bad as it sounds though. In youtube videos comparing it to others I got a feeling that Reactors sound a bit boxy but I am sure the actual thing is much better. Youtube videos provide only small clues, sometimes in he wrong direction.

I think the most important contribution to sound quality of a music is obtained by having a master quality recording. Such music sounds extremely good with a big difference even in a car's OEM stereo through spotify on iphone. The rest, amps DAC speakers are really second to the quality of the recording.

Anyway Devialet is full of surprises. You never seem to know what you are buying, we tend to accept given specs as operating specs but it seems they state in their product pages the maximum capacities of various parts while we do not know how much of it is being put into use, as we found out not all of it. And you always carry the risk of bugs and some downgrades with firmgrade upgrades

Haha, pretty much spot on. They do sound good though, and with RAAT support for me at least they have finally fulfilled the promise I bought into. 24/192 would have been nice but I can live with 24/48 for the convenience and seamless integration. It’s a huge step up from 16/44.


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