(02-Feb-2021, 22:40)streamy Wrote: I just commented in another thread here that Devialet in my opinion stretches quite out in terms of legality.
I wrote: At some point Devialet will need to explain their new product specifications. They still keep the product specs for the Golds to have a frequency range from 14Hz to 27kHz @-6dB but on the other hand there is no way to provide any digital signal above 48k, which results theoretically to a max frequency of 24kHz @-112dB when the filters are ideally bandstop. It’s a bit like the claim my Renault Twingo has a max speed of 350 km/h ... in zero gravity space! Probably, Devialet needs to go over their books not to collide with consumers protection laws in France and Europe at least.
How big is the difference actually in real life?
It's no so much about what is the difference...it's music, there are so many variables to your listening experience, don't want to go there (in my case I can hear the difference)...my issue is about future proofing my investment and false expectations. We had Vinyl, CD, MP3...PONO....now Spotify, Tidal(MQA), AMAZON...has a long time music/HIFI lover, MP3 years were dark years, I don't want to go back and I'm willing to pay for the extra "quality" and support the Hi-Res "movement" (eg Roon, etc)...Devialet in that sense was ahead of the pack, their specs were 24/192khz for internal DAC and I paid (at least for me) good money (and a lot of new white hair in tech issues) to have that capability and future proof my investment depending on where the industry goes....the industry "standard" today is 24/96khz to be considered a good quality Hi-Res tracks...Devialet with their last move basically downgraded their specs to 24/48khz, we went from the leading edge PHANTOM (good investment) to old tech in Hi-Res terms...there's dozen of other options in the market for half of the price, now it holds true the catchphrase of the most expensive "Home appliance" Bluetooth speakers in the world...if you don't believe me, go I try to sell yours on eBay and see how much the market is willing to pay for them...I know we all should focus on enjoying our music and don't look at the specs, but when a company charges 10k for a pair of speakers and in plain sight downgrades the specs of the product over and over again with no compensation to their customers something is wrong?! Why they didn't advertise the speakers has 24/48k in the first place if that's not important...??
03-Feb-2021, 10:29 (This post was last modified: 03-Feb-2021, 10:37 by daibaron.)
I think you're right, Devialet has miss it's point by designing an average specs "killer" speaker that can't handle hi-res format with a twist by making the device not audiophile friendly anymore.
Before i sold it I remembered that my Phantom Gold was able to play 24/192 over the network (uPnP) and and optical.
It seems not the case anymore since DOS2 and they rewrote the final specs on the product page like nothing happens.
(03-Feb-2021, 04:08)KarlMarx Wrote: 24/192 plays perfectly via Audirvana in UPnP
Yes it's playing but it's downsampled to 48khz in the Phantom like specified on the spec sheet.
This makes absolutely no sense, why would it downsample a signal that has already arrived? What is the economy of that? Especially over ethernet.
I get it for streaming signals being downsampled before they are transmitted, like Roon. Besides, there doesnt seem to be a way of knowing if its downsampling the 24/192
03-Feb-2021, 18:25 (This post was last modified: 03-Feb-2021, 18:27 by Eggman.)
It'll be pretty much impossible for anyone to A/B the new/old rates, as who is going to have the two different OS's with two identical Phantom pairings in one house? With no blind listening test to see if there is any actual difference in sound quality with the decreased specs, we'll never know if there is an actual difference without bias. Maybe there's no audible difference?
From a marketing standpoint, it seems like a dumb move, as they're officially moving the entire Phantom line from the audiophile world to the lifestyle market -- at audiophile prices. Don't see how it's going to increase their appeal. If I were starting out now, I'd get a NAD33 with full MQA, room correction, etc., a pair of Klipsch Heresy IV's and call it a day.
Perhaps they're quietly trying to solve the widespread stability issues. My Phantoms were a nightmare once I got rid of the Dialog -- they really don't play well with mesh networks. Still, given the huge pain in the ass of selling them, I supposed I'll just suck up the indignity and stream Apple Music through them and reserve serious TIDAL MQA listening for my headphones.
It's a bummer, but C'est la vie. Maybe some day, I'll get those Klipsches...
03-Feb-2021, 18:27 (This post was last modified: 03-Feb-2021, 18:36 by daibaron.)
DOS 2 can't decode MQA.
It's seems to me Roon is reencoding the source to make it compatible with the Phantom.
You should try with a non MQA flac of 24/96 or 24/192
03-Feb-2021, 21:57 (This post was last modified: 03-Feb-2021, 22:07 by struts.)
(03-Feb-2021, 17:19)christermolander Wrote: Yes it is.
In Roon you can see the whole chain from Core to Devialet.
My Roon is in Swedish but you can see the numbers.
“Uteenhet”??
PS I realise that speedreading let me down a bit but it did give me a good laugh to end the day!
(03-Feb-2021, 04:08)KarlMarx Wrote: 24/192 plays perfectly via Audirvana in UPnP
Yes it's playing but it's downsampled to 48khz in the Phantom like specified on the spec sheet.
This makes absolutely no sense, why would it downsample a signal that has already arrived? What is the economy of that? Especially over ethernet.
I get it for streaming signals being downsampled before they are transmitted, like Roon. Besides, there doesnt seem to be a way of knowing if its downsampling the 24/192
I would say a possible explanation, I already placed in an other thread here in the forum, is that your hires signal arrives as a stereo signal to one of the Phantoms or in DOS1 to Dialog. Then the stereo stream needs to be separated in that Phantom or in Dialog (DOS1) and one channel has to be sent again through the network time stamped or synchronized (with a precision in timing of 50us) constantly to the other Phantom to be played in Stereo on both Phantoms. Multiply this for multiroom. This is a lot of bandwidth many home networks fail. Here are the hiccups Devialet has to solve and that not many companies are able to deliver, name Apple, Google, Sonos.... All of them stayed below hires 24/192k some far away! Apple sticks to 24/48k, Google tried 24/96k, gave up on it. Sonos did no go hires as far as I can recall. Devialet with DOS1 and Spark and Dialog tried to stick on 24/192k then went down the road to 24/96k and now landed at 24/48k. The reason: only in few networks, e.g. with using PLC and ‘rural environment’, which is my condition Dialog, multiroom, on DOS1 with Dialog works like a charm. But, similar setups in cities, big blocks, with many competing networks make it impossible to meet the real-time requirements or QoS that a steaming system needs for hires. So as a consequence, I guess, Devialet had to downscale in DOS2 the internal delivery, this is after you send your stream to the master recipient through Roon, upnp, or optical, to something that works in an average network (sending the stream to all Phantoms. And then Roon asks for transparency, I.e. full display of the entire signal path from the original data on the streaming service or local drive to what arrives at the DAQ before it is amplified and actuates the speaker. And I think that’s where Roon asks for transparency from companies to receive the “Roon ready” label. Devialet bit into it at the price to reveal that what arrives at the DAQ of all speakers and they had to change the specs. This is my guess, I have no insights into how Devialet operates or makes business. I’m only an early adopter of Phantoms since it’s beginning and went through all history of these fabulous speakers, except did not yet upgrade to DOS2 as my system works solid and reliable. Coming back to the problem of streaming. It’s not about what signal can be sent to a device, it’s about what in the end arrives at the DAQ. You can blow up or compress on the way to the DAQ as much as you want. In the end what counts is what arrives there. As much as I dislike MQA it follows that path, unfortunately not transparently as simple PCM does, or Flac, Alac, AIFF, and other formats.
In conclusion: What you stream to as system is not what might arrives at the DAQ. What Devialet now specifies having added Roon is state of the art. What the Phantoms (Golds) should be able to output would require at least 24/88.2k streams being converted by the DAQ as the specified frequency range is 14Hz-27kHz (-6dB). The DAQ is capable of 24/192k. The networked stream between Phantoms obviously is not. And it looks like on newer Phantoms there is also a problem on what to optical input can take (only 24/96k instead of 24/192k what is no problem in older Phantoms).
