Trolling

[Damon]

Gurux,

I don't know your entire history with the D or your experiences contacting Devialet. But you seem to be unhappy that your older product doesn't have every possible function (UPnP, room correction, infrared), that it is isn't still superior to their latest, or later products, and that some upgrades are optional instead of automatic and free. You also criticize them for SAM, which you find useless, but the vast majority of posts here are very complimentary. Every review I've read is the same. Devialet doesn't do room correction: true enough, but other software does. That is not a flaw in the Devialet product line. It is a decision they made. They prioritized, as you advised.

We all buy products when they offer us a combination of performance and price, and whatever else we want. Yes, Devialet has included some element of upgradability in its promotion, but that does not mean every piece of hardware will be capable of every future improvement.

You don't expect you car to be upgradeable just because a new model comes out, or that the computer purchased in 2014 will be the same or as good as the next model six months later. Devialet cannot be any different. That there have been software improvements available seems to me still to put Devialet ahead of every other audio company, at least for their current / recent products. I can't see how they can be faulted for making the D120 as good and capable as it can be.

I don't think the comparisons to Naim are correct; their upgrades are not automatic or cheap. Upgrading my UQ1 to a UQ2 will be close to $500.00. As you will undoubtedly know, Naim owners all screamed for Spotify. Then when it became available there was widespread complaining about the SQ. The SU has been replaced by the newer SU2, with no upgrade path available. That's the way most hardware works. And not everybody here has been clamouring for UPnP. And if there is one consistent area of complaints on the Naim forum, it is UPnP connectivity, and the function of the app. Long, loud, angry and persistent posts. I know, as I'm one of the complainers there.

I'm not diminishing your experience with Devialet's customer support or service. They may not be very good at it. I also don't know what you read or were told before you made your purchase. But just because they are not doing what you want, or continuing to upgrade your particular product does not mean that they are not innovating or making legitimate design or business decisions.

[IanG-UK]

And it's kind of disappointing to see that most of the functionality I've been waiting for is now being offered in an entry level product while the D line hasn't seen any meaningful update in a while.
[/quote]

You bet I am not over the moon with this info plus that Dev sat aside us with D lines with all its glitches.

I start to think that we at this forum keeps most of this anger here instead of directing it to Devialet. Perhaps more of us here with 'issues' should write to Devialet so they start to understand what is going on?
Love my monos but that's about that the rest is just a big and growing bag of broken promises.
I am not surprised about this development as I sensed it already when the CEO sent out his e-letter to us owners.

Time for a mail storm to Dev/Mike
[/quote]

Agreed.

When you produce a £250k Rolls Royce and it stops working, you don't ignore it for months and then bring out a £25k Rolls Royce which is 1,000 times better.

Indeed, you don't even launch a new model until you fix the original.

[Gurux]

Gurux,

I don't know your entire history with the D or your experiences contacting Devialet. But you seem to be unhappy that your older product doesn't have every possible function (UPnP, room correction, infrared), that it is isn't still superior to their latest, or later products, and that some upgrades are optional instead of automatic and free. You also criticize them for SAM, which you find useless, but the vast majority of posts here are very complimentary. Every review I've read is the same. Devialet doesn't do room correction: true enough, but other software does. That is not a flaw in the Devialet product line. It is a decision they made. They prioritized, as you advised.

We all buy products when they offer us a combination of performance and price, and whatever else we want. Yes, Devialet has included some element of upgradability in its promotion, but that does not mean every piece of hardware will be capable of every future improvement.

You don't expect you car to be upgradeable just because a new model comes out, or that the computer purchased in 2014 will be the same or as good as the next model six months later. Devialet cannot be any different. That there have been software improvements available seems to me still to put Devialet ahead of every other audio company, at least for their current / recent products. I can't see how they can be faulted for making the D120 as good and capable as it can be.

I don't think the comparisons to Naim are correct; their upgrades are not automatic or cheap. Upgrading my UQ1 to a UQ2 will be close to $500.00. As you will undoubtedly know, Naim owners all screamed for Spotify. Then when it became available there was widespread complaining about the SQ. The SU has been replaced by the newer SU2, with no upgrade path available. That's the way most hardware works. And not everybody here has been clamouring for UPnP. And if there is one consistent area of complaints on the Naim forum, it is UPnP connectivity, and the function of the app. Long, loud, angry and persistent posts. I know, as I'm one of the complainers there.

I'm not diminishing your experience with Devialet's customer support or service. They may not be very good at it. I also don't know what you read or were told before you made your purchase. But just because they are not doing what you want, or continuing to upgrade your particular product does not mean that they are not innovating or making legitimate design or business decisions.

I am not talking hardware. I am just referring to the little computer inside my Devialet and how it has been put to use.

We were told that the best wire is no wire so that concept screwed the D Premier big time with the well known wifi issues. We were told that Air is the best streaming solution on Planet Earth bar none, however plenty of you came to realise that a ...(you can fill in the details with whatever decent external UPnP solution you want) can sound as good, if not better.

To this day some users still have issues with Air. My personal experience with JR and Air on a Mac was one of the most frustrating in my whole audio history.

As I said above a system lives or dies by its performance and convenience. I had a Naim system myself at some point. And not a UQ but the Reference 500 series, with a NDS DR as source, on a Fraim. I gave up that system not because it didn't offer excellent performance but because it was taking too much of my living space and time to setup, maintain etc. I wanted a one box solution, not unlike the SU, but with a significantly better SQ. And I was hoping that my Devialet would fit the bill.

I was determined to invest time and effort in making Air work. But in the end I gave up and went back to UPnP.

I tried to communicate with Devialet several times but nothing good came out of that. Polite but ultimately useless answers.

I agree that my needs are not universal and I'm sure plenty of you are happy with the Air approach. But Devialet are now offering this missing functionality in a lesser, cheaper mass product. They told me privately that Air was the only way to go and they were not even considering implementing UPnP, then released the super duper system that is meant to replace everything audio in the known universe with the exact functionality I had requested for years.

How would you feel if UQ had all the bells and whistles - UPnP, Internet radio etc but the NDS only came with Air because it "sounded best"?.

[f1eng]

I do think a lot of of the problem has been trying to keep up with the demands of customers. Everybody seems to have a different idea of what they want, a different idea of what they find sounds best and even a different idea of what Devialet were offering/promising into the future.
Demanding PC compatibility rather than accepting the Mac probably was the biggest influence on Air not being debugged quickly since it is now too complicated to cover all bases.
It is a shame, IMHO, since a dedicated Mac is not expensive compared to some of the accessories being used by owners (even cables for god's sake), and the "promise" of the original Air will now never be realised and all the other demands have just added a workload which is probably beyond the most pessimistic plans they ever had.
Add to that the software requirements of the new products and I am not that surprised by the bedlam, personally.
If they had just stuck to the original straightforward engineering plan they started with, rather than going into a flat spin trying to keep up with customer demands, I would imagine we would all have the great sounding LP, CD and Mac fronted wireless streaming device I bought into.

I am disappointed too, but I mainly blame it on the customers wanting PC support and UPnP solutions added, and demanding it done right now.

[gtiboy]

Gurux,

I don't know your entire history with the D or your experiences contacting Devialet. But you seem to be unhappy that your older product doesn't have every possible function (UPnP, room correction, infrared), that it is isn't still superior to their latest, or later products, and that some upgrades are optional instead of automatic and free. You also criticize them for SAM, which you find useless, but the vast majority of posts here are very complimentary. Every review I've read is the same. Devialet doesn't do room correction: true enough, but other software does. That is not a flaw in the Devialet product line. It is a decision they made. They prioritized, as you advised.

We all buy products when they offer us a combination of performance and price, and whatever else we want. Yes, Devialet has included some element of upgradability in its promotion, but that does not mean every piece of hardware will be capable of every future improvement.

You don't expect you car to be upgradeable just because a new model comes out, or that the computer purchased in 2014 will be the same or as good as the next model six months later. Devialet cannot be any different. That there have been software improvements available seems to me still to put Devialet ahead of every other audio company, at least for their current / recent products. I can't see how they can be faulted for making the D120 as good and capable as it can be.

I don't think the comparisons to Naim are correct; their upgrades are not automatic or cheap. Upgrading my UQ1 to a UQ2 will be close to $500.00. As you will undoubtedly know, Naim owners all screamed for Spotify. Then when it became available there was widespread complaining about the SQ. The SU has been replaced by the newer SU2, with no upgrade path available. That's the way most hardware works. And not everybody here has been clamouring for UPnP. And if there is one consistent area of complaints on the Naim forum, it is UPnP connectivity, and the function of the app. Long, loud, angry and persistent posts. I know, as I'm one of the complainers there.

I'm not diminishing your experience with Devialet's customer support or service. They may not be very good at it. I also don't know what you read or were told before you made your purchase. But just because they are not doing what you want, or continuing to upgrade your particular product does not mean that they are not innovating or making legitimate design or business decisions.

I am not talking hardware. I am just referring to the little computer inside my Devialet and how it has been put to use.

We were told that the best wire is no wire so that concept screwed the D Premier big time with the well known wifi issues. We were told that Air is the best streaming solution on Planet Earth bar none, however plenty of you came to realise that a ...(you can fill in the details with whatever decent external UPnP solution you want) can sound as good, if not better.

To this day some users still have issues with Air. My personal experience with JR and Air on a Mac was one of the most frustrating in my whole audio history.

As I said above a system lives or dies by its performance and convenience. I had a Naim system myself at some point. And not a UQ but the Reference 500 series, with a NDS DR as source, on a Fraim. I gave up that system not because it didn't offer excellent performance but because it was taking too much of my living space and time to setup, maintain etc. I wanted a one box solution, not unlike the SU, but with a significantly better SQ. And I was hoping that my Devialet would fit the bill.

I was determined to invest time and effort in making Air work. But in the end I gave up and went back to UPnP.

I tried to communicate with Devialet several times but nothing good came out of that. Polite but ultimately useless answers.

I agree that my needs are not universal and I'm sure plenty of you are happy with the Air approach. But Devialet are now offering this missing functionality in a lesser, cheaper mass product. They told me privately that Air was the only way to go and they were not even considering implementing UPnP, then released the super duper system that is meant to replace everything audio in the known universe with the exact functionality I had requested for years.

How would you feel if UQ had all the bells and whistles - UPnP, Internet radio etc but the NDS only came with Air because it "sounded best"?.

I agree with everything you say Gurux. I too have sold my high end Naim system, looking at getting a SuperUniti instead due to the fact there isn't a proper streaming solution with the Devialet. All these external streamers are a compromise and makes the box count two plus more interconnects. The whole concept of Devialet was a one box device. So the merry go round starts again.

When you see how well Naim have implemented the streaming side of things, uPnP, iRadio, The fact you have a USB port to insert USB sticks to play FLAC or WAV files. It's very convenient. But they don't do a single box solution that sounds as good as the Devialet does.

It's a shame Devialet haven't built their Devialet 120/200/250 with a built in streamer much like Naim's.

The trouble with buying into Devialet right now is that it's a young company that's still developing their products so in a way it was expected with what happened when they brought out cheaper amps over the 250. I feel they are using you guys as guinea pigs to learn how to develop their product base and tailor it to what the customers needs.

Anyone buying into Devialet now has to expect this over the next few years. It's one of the reasons I haven't bought a D200 yet, it could get superseded or they could end up bringing out hardware updates for it, much like the D-Premier did where you have to pay for the change.

[Gurux]

And I do have a feeling that the current generation is approaching its end of life cycle and soon enough we will see a new D line with UPnP and room calibration. Which is all good except one will probably be expected to pay big money again for the upgrade.

In the end I suppose we are all right, each in his own scenario. And while I think Devialet is a great brand and it's products are among the best in their price range, I don't feel that the direction they are taking fits my particular needs, which is a one box replacement for one of the high end UPnP streamer systems on the market - Linn, Naim etc. I am also unimpressed by their customer support and marketing tactics. So it is time to accept it and move on.

[Mikeeo]

All above is a bit worrying I must say and if there is some truth to this I'll be highly disappointed but I will stick to my units anyway as this is very good gear and I am not prepared to pay many x times more for another brand to reach the same level of SuperFi. Of course if the units will cease to function due to software issues all hell will break loose. At the moment I have hope that Dev will address all issues that we have. As I do not use Air I've been in someways 'lucky' but all other issues that I had is more than enough for an unhappy me.

I'll be in Paris in the beginning of March, a visit for sure it will be.

Another line coming up soon to replace D will not be taken calmly.

/Mike

[GuillaumeB]

And I do have a feeling that the current generation is approaching its end of life cycle and soon enough we will see a new D line with UPnP and room calibration. Which is all good except one will probably be expected to pay big money again for the upgrade.

I think it's highly unlikely that a new range will replace the 120/200/250/400/800 anytime soon given all the effort that recently went into the Phantom launch. Devialet will have their work cut out with Spark not to mention the ramping up of production of what is for them a new class of product. I would expect Munich 2016 as a more realistic timeframe for a refresh/update of the Expert line. Devialet is still a very small company even if it employs a lot more engineers than anyone else.

Guillaume

[f1eng]

And I do have a feeling that the current generation is approaching its end of life cycle and soon enough we will see a new D line with UPnP and room calibration. Which is all good except one will probably be expected to pay big money again for the upgrade.

I think it's highly unlikely that a new range will replace the 120/200/250/400/800 anytime soon given all the effort that recently went into the Phantom launch. Devialet will have their work cut out with Spark not to mention the ramping up of production of what is for them a new class of product. I would expect Munich 2016 as a more realistic timeframe for a refresh/update of the Expert line. Devialet is still a very small company even if it employs a lot more engineers than anyone else.

Guillaume

I tend to agree. I am not even sure the D-Premier would have been replaced had the SAM development for the Phantom not given such good results leading them to decide to produce SAM files for other speakers and leading to the need for much more DSP than was originally envisaged.
I think their development will continue to be going increasingly mass market.

I would think they feel there is no SQ improvement available over and above what they now have, and since they cover the power range up to 800wpc there probably aren't any gaps in the range from the engineering standpoint.
That would be my pov too, though I expect some enthusiasts would differ.

[PhilP]

ZAn interesting thread and quite appropriately titled...

... The whole concept of Devialet was a one box device...

Well, actually it wasn't - it was always clear that Devialet expected customers to use a Mac as a source, so two box...

When you see how well Naim have implemented the streaming side of things, uPnP, iRadio, The fact you have a USB port to insert USB sticks to play FLAC or WAV files. It's very convenient.

Really? In my opinion Naim have not done a good job of implementing the streaming side of things. They have engineered their streamers in such a way that its necessary to purchase a very expensive external power supply to make them bearable to listen to; their poor UPnP discovery and half-baked app. has caused customers endless problems and the basic functionality is poor - they do not (even now) support lossless music streaming services. I really like the NDS and nearly bought one but it costs £13,000 with the 555PS which is absurd given that by many accounts it is equalled/outperformed by a Mac Mini + Chord Hugo at about £2k.

I've had NO problems streaming via AIR either wi-fi or ethernet - no drop-outs, no white noise and no problems with the configurator. Devialet have delivered MORE than I expected - power upgrade + SAM and the value for money compared to products like those produced by Naim is amazing.

I very much hope that it is possible for Devialet to upgrade the 'Expert' series to include full streaming functionality but my system sounds great as it is and for now I'm a very happy customer