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MacMini –> Audirvana 3.5 –> Sonarworks –> UpnP –> Golds (DOS2) = BLISS!
#41
(10-Jan-2020, 23:33)Pwalder Wrote: Thanks for spending so much time on this. The current situation is that I have a working system as a result of creating a separate wifi network from my Virgin Media cable modem. This gives an average of >70Mb/s speed. Both my iMac and iPad (remote) are now on this network and I have also configured the Phantoms to this network  and everything seems to be working with the exception of 24/192 files which still skip. Files are being streamed from Qobuz Studio and Tidal Masters trial accounts (I understand that Phantoms don't support MQA so Tidal Master files are being rendered after just one 'unfold' in Audirvana......as I understand it!). I have restricted the input from Qobuz to 24/96 to stop the skipping on native 24/192 files.

The question you asked relate to the old network which is still working ok for non Audirvana applications. Here are my attempts to answer them.

1.  What network equipment do you have?  All-in-one modem/switch/access point?  Model/vintage?  Please describe the topology if simple or draw it if not.  Please describe how far away anything connected over wireless is from the access point and how much, if anything (e.g. walls, etc), is in the way.

Answer: The Virgin Media cable modem is a very recent acquistion from my ISP and I believe has up to date spec but is not a MESH modem. On the 'old' network the cable modem  is linked to an Apple Extreme Time Machine which then effectively becomes the router.......Apple Support helped set me up the precise configuration of the Apple Extreme and I am afraid the details are beyond my knowledge. The Apple Extreme supples both 2.4 and 5.0 networks and I tend to use the 5.0. The Apple Extreme is also linked via a Powerline system to two Apple expresses elsewhere in the house and garage to increase coverage. One of these Apple expresses is in the same room as the Phantoms and an ethernet link goes from the Apple Express to the 'legacy' Dialogue and this is still active and in the old network was recognised by DOS 2 as being present.....plan was to use the Toslink port for my Arcam CD player. I did test this and it worked although if Qobuz/Tidal prove reliable I won't need it.
2.  How is your iMac connected to your network?  Ethernet wifi? both?  If wifi, how good is the wifi signal strength seen from your Mac (do you have the tools/knowledge to measure it?).
Answer: .....See above.. Effectively both on the 'old' network but under the new configuration just wifi via the Virgin Media cable modem and that pathway doesn't include the Apple Extreme or Powerlines etc. Just to note the Mac and Phantoms are in different rooms. Mac upstairs and Phantom downstairs so no 'line of sight possible'.
3.  You say your Phantoms are not connected via Ethernet (correct?) but your Dialog is (correct?)
Answer: Yes that is correct in both instances... (see above)....Dialogue and Phantoms are all in the same power block.
4.  How good is the wifi signal seen from your Phantoms (do you have the tools/knowledge to measure it?) averages > 70Mb/s
5.  How are your Phantoms connecting to your Dialog? (in the app click on the cogwheel, each speaker and then Network Interfaces)......The interface is 'Auto' in both Phantoms. Just to note that both Phantoms are running 2.8.5 but the Dialog is running 2.8.3. I have been in regular communication with Devialet support for about 3 weeks as they said they should all use 2.8.5  and they have promised an update for the Dialog but it hasn't appeared yet...I've been nagging!!

As you can see the 'old' system is pretty complicated but up to installing Audirvana it 'just worked' consistently. We are expecting to move house in the next month so I am now starting to think this is the opportunity to start with a blank slate and build up from the new wifi network. This may well mean retiring the Apple Kit which has been super reliable and for a non-techy like me the Apple Support (like your own!) has been fantastic and a very reassuring back stop.
Once again thanks for spending so much time on this and if you do have any suggestions on the best way forward I am very happy to listen.......I have learnt a lot from this exchange.
This afternoon, after yesterday’s success, unfortunately the skipping has returned. Internet speed was not the issue at 100 Mb/s and was present on 24/96 which was working yesterday  ☹️
Reply
#42
(11-Jan-2020, 17:35)Pwalder Wrote:
(10-Jan-2020, 23:33)Pwalder Wrote: Thanks for spending so much time on this. The current situation is that I have a working system as a result of creating a separate wifi network from my Virgin Media cable modem. This gives an average of >70Mb/s speed. Both my iMac and iPad (remote) are now on this network and I have also configured the Phantoms to this network  and everything seems to be working with the exception of 24/192 files which still skip. Files are being streamed from Qobuz Studio and Tidal Masters trial accounts (I understand that Phantoms don't support MQA so Tidal Master files are being rendered after just one 'unfold' in Audirvana......as I understand it!). I have restricted the input from Qobuz to 24/96 to stop the skipping on native 24/192 files.

The question you asked relate to the old network which is still working ok for non Audirvana applications. Here are my attempts to answer them.

1.  What network equipment do you have?  All-in-one modem/switch/access point?  Model/vintage?  Please describe the topology if simple or draw it if not.  Please describe how far away anything connected over wireless is from the access point and how much, if anything (e.g. walls, etc), is in the way.

Answer: The Virgin Media cable modem is a very recent acquistion from my ISP and I believe has up to date spec but is not a MESH modem. On the 'old' network the cable modem  is linked to an Apple Extreme Time Machine which then effectively becomes the router.......Apple Support helped set me up the precise configuration of the Apple Extreme and I am afraid the details are beyond my knowledge. The Apple Extreme supples both 2.4 and 5.0 networks and I tend to use the 5.0. The Apple Extreme is also linked via a Powerline system to two Apple expresses elsewhere in the house and garage to increase coverage. One of these Apple expresses is in the same room as the Phantoms and an ethernet link goes from the Apple Express to the 'legacy' Dialogue and this is still active and in the old network was recognised by DOS 2 as being present.....plan was to use the Toslink port for my Arcam CD player. I did test this and it worked although if Qobuz/Tidal prove reliable I won't need it.
2.  How is your iMac connected to your network?  Ethernet wifi? both?  If wifi, how good is the wifi signal strength seen from your Mac (do you have the tools/knowledge to measure it?).
Answer: .....See above.. Effectively both on the 'old' network but under the new configuration just wifi via the Virgin Media cable modem and that pathway doesn't include the Apple Extreme or Powerlines etc. Just to note the Mac and Phantoms are in different rooms. Mac upstairs and Phantom downstairs so no 'line of sight possible'.
3.  You say your Phantoms are not connected via Ethernet (correct?) but your Dialog is (correct?)
Answer: Yes that is correct in both instances... (see above)....Dialogue and Phantoms are all in the same power block.
4.  How good is the wifi signal seen from your Phantoms (do you have the tools/knowledge to measure it?) averages > 70Mb/s
5.  How are your Phantoms connecting to your Dialog? (in the app click on the cogwheel, each speaker and then Network Interfaces)......The interface is 'Auto' in both Phantoms. Just to note that both Phantoms are running 2.8.5 but the Dialog is running 2.8.3. I have been in regular communication with Devialet support for about 3 weeks as they said they should all use 2.8.5  and they have promised an update for the Dialog but it hasn't appeared yet...I've been nagging!!

As you can see the 'old' system is pretty complicated but up to installing Audirvana it 'just worked' consistently. We are expecting to move house in the next month so I am now starting to think this is the opportunity to start with a blank slate and build up from the new wifi network. This may well mean retiring the Apple Kit which has been super reliable and for a non-techy like me the Apple Support (like your own!) has been fantastic and a very reassuring back stop.
Once again thanks for spending so much time on this and if you do have any suggestions on the best way forward I am very happy to listen.......I have learnt a lot from this exchange.
This afternoon, after yesterday’s success, unfortunately the skipping has returned. Internet speed was not the issue at 100 Mb/s and was present on 24/96 which was working yesterday  ☹️

Aaaargh, so close!  @Pwalder I has suspicions that your network was somehow to blame, and there are indeed a couple of factors in your description that could be causing issues (see advice below).  However given the above I am now leaning towards a firmware problem as the most likely culprit.  The optimist in me would love to think this could be rectified by updating your dialog to 2.8.5, let's hope so, but unfortunately the realist in me says the optimist is a fool and that the upcoming 2.9.0 is more likely to provide the solution.

A couple of observations about your network:
1.  PLC bridges, like the ones between your Virgin modem and your Airports, can be problematic.  If there is a device (usual culprits are washing machines and driers, especially old ones with mechanical timers) that is sending noise back into your mains, PLC connectivity can be the first to suffer.  It is hard to control the quality of your mains so PLC is really for last resort only.
2.  Wifi antennae radiate perpendicular to the antenna in a circular pattern.  Imagine holding an LP on a pencil.  If the pencil is the antenna the signal propagates in the direction of the vinyl.  In other words if your antennae point straight up you will get best propagation (i.e. coverage) horizontally.  But if you want coverage in the vertical plane, such as in a multi-story house, you will want to angle the one or more of the antennae appropriately or use a mesh system with one unit on each floor.  
3.  However it is also hard to control the quality of your wireless environment, especially if you live in an apartment building or other multi-unit dwelling where your mains and your airwaves are at risk of pollution by others outside your control.  For that reason Ethernet is still more reliable than either.  If you are moving house please consider getting it wired!  
4.  Finally, Wifi dropouts are not always due to poor coverage causing poor bandwidth.  Radio spectrum is a living organism and even if the architecture is pretty fixed sources of congestion and interference come and go.  So measuring bandwidth at the endpoint tells you something, but unfortunately you may never know how much it is actually telling you.  Hence point 3 above.

Sorry, I've failed you here.  But with your latest datapoints I am tending to the view that your problems are not user-solvable.  Sorry.
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#43
(12-Jan-2020, 18:33)struts Wrote:
(11-Jan-2020, 17:35)Pwalder Wrote:
(10-Jan-2020, 23:33)Pwalder Wrote: Thanks for spending so much time on this. The current situation is that I have a working system as a result of creating a separate wifi network from my Virgin Media cable modem. This gives an average of >70Mb/s speed. Both my iMac and iPad (remote) are now on this network and I have also configured the Phantoms to this network  and everything seems to be working with the exception of 24/192 files which still skip. Files are being streamed from Qobuz Studio and Tidal Masters trial accounts (I understand that Phantoms don't support MQA so Tidal Master files are being rendered after just one 'unfold' in Audirvana......as I understand it!). I have restricted the input from Qobuz to 24/96 to stop the skipping on native 24/192 files.

The question you asked relate to the old network which is still working ok for non Audirvana applications. Here are my attempts to answer them.

1.  What network equipment do you have?  All-in-one modem/switch/access point?  Model/vintage?  Please describe the topology if simple or draw it if not.  Please describe how far away anything connected over wireless is from the access point and how much, if anything (e.g. walls, etc), is in the way.

Answer: The Virgin Media cable modem is a very recent acquistion from my ISP and I believe has up to date spec but is not a MESH modem. On the 'old' network the cable modem  is linked to an Apple Extreme Time Machine which then effectively becomes the router.......Apple Support helped set me up the precise configuration of the Apple Extreme and I am afraid the details are beyond my knowledge. The Apple Extreme supples both 2.4 and 5.0 networks and I tend to use the 5.0. The Apple Extreme is also linked via a Powerline system to two Apple expresses elsewhere in the house and garage to increase coverage. One of these Apple expresses is in the same room as the Phantoms and an ethernet link goes from the Apple Express to the 'legacy' Dialogue and this is still active and in the old network was recognised by DOS 2 as being present.....plan was to use the Toslink port for my Arcam CD player. I did test this and it worked although if Qobuz/Tidal prove reliable I won't need it.
2.  How is your iMac connected to your network?  Ethernet wifi? both?  If wifi, how good is the wifi signal strength seen from your Mac (do you have the tools/knowledge to measure it?).
Answer: .....See above.. Effectively both on the 'old' network but under the new configuration just wifi via the Virgin Media cable modem and that pathway doesn't include the Apple Extreme or Powerlines etc. Just to note the Mac and Phantoms are in different rooms. Mac upstairs and Phantom downstairs so no 'line of sight possible'.
3.  You say your Phantoms are not connected via Ethernet (correct?) but your Dialog is (correct?)
Answer: Yes that is correct in both instances... (see above)....Dialogue and Phantoms are all in the same power block.
4.  How good is the wifi signal seen from your Phantoms (do you have the tools/knowledge to measure it?) averages > 70Mb/s
5.  How are your Phantoms connecting to your Dialog? (in the app click on the cogwheel, each speaker and then Network Interfaces)......The interface is 'Auto' in both Phantoms. Just to note that both Phantoms are running 2.8.5 but the Dialog is running 2.8.3. I have been in regular communication with Devialet support for about 3 weeks as they said they should all use 2.8.5  and they have promised an update for the Dialog but it hasn't appeared yet...I've been nagging!!

As you can see the 'old' system is pretty complicated but up to installing Audirvana it 'just worked' consistently. We are expecting to move house in the next month so I am now starting to think this is the opportunity to start with a blank slate and build up from the new wifi network. This may well mean retiring the Apple Kit which has been super reliable and for a non-techy like me the Apple Support (like your own!) has been fantastic and a very reassuring back stop.
Once again thanks for spending so much time on this and if you do have any suggestions on the best way forward I am very happy to listen.......I have learnt a lot from this exchange.
This afternoon, after yesterday’s success, unfortunately the skipping has returned. Internet speed was not the issue at 100 Mb/s and was present on 24/96 which was working yesterday  ☹️

Aaaargh, so close!  @Pwalder I has suspicions that your network was somehow to blame, and there are indeed a couple of factors in your description that could be causing issues (see advice below).  However given the above I am now leaning towards a firmware problem as the most likely culprit.  The optimist in me would love to think this could be rectified by updating your dialog to 2.8.5, let's hope so, but unfortunately the realist in me says the optimist is a fool and that the upcoming 2.9.0 is more likely to provide the solution.

A couple of observations about your network:
1.  PLC bridges, like the ones between your Virgin modem and your Airports, can be problematic.  If there is a device (usual culprits are washing machines and driers, especially old ones with mechanical timers) that is sending noise back into your mains, PLC connectivity can be the first to suffer.  It is hard to control the quality of your mains so PLC is really for last resort only.
2.  Wifi antennae radiate perpendicular to the antenna in a circular pattern.  Imagine holding an LP on a pencil.  If the pencil is the antenna the signal propagates in the direction of the vinyl.  In other words if your antennae point straight up you will get best propagation (i.e. coverage) horizontally.  But if you want coverage in the vertical plane, such as in a multi-story house, you will want to angle the one or more of the antennae appropriately or use a mesh system with one unit on each floor.  
3.  However it is also hard to control the quality of your wireless environment, especially if you live in an apartment building or other multi-unit dwelling where your mains and your airwaves are at risk of pollution by others outside your control.  For that reason Ethernet is still more reliable than either.  If you are moving house please consider getting it wired!  
4.  Finally, Wifi dropouts are not always due to poor coverage causing poor bandwidth.  Radio spectrum is a living organism and even if the architecture is pretty fixed sources of congestion and interference come and go.  So measuring bandwidth at the endpoint tells you something, but unfortunately you may never know how much it is actually telling you.  Hence point 3 above.

Sorry, I've failed you here.  But with your latest datapoints I am tending to the view that your problems are not user-solvable.  Sorry.
Thanks once more. Its playing 24/96 without a hitch as I write this on the 'new' network i.e. which only uses wifi directly generated by the Virgin Media modem - no plc. I didn't know any of the information you've provided about wifi propagation or washing machines (which actually was in use yesterday so just might have been influential). Like you, I think the Dialog firmware mismatch is almost certainly a red herring. I am certainly not giving up on this, as when its working it's something I really enjoy and as the new house we are buying is going to need some electrical work I will seriously thing about getting some ethernet wiring. I've read about  different CAT wiring standards, so if I go down the ethernet route (which now seems likely), what standard wiring should I specify in order the wiring is reasonably future proof ...CAT 7? Could I also ask one final question.....given the comments about router antenna, and the fact that my router is on the first floor (but immediately above my Devialet Phantoms on the ground floor), would simply changing the orientation of the modem/router (ie lying it flat rather than upright)  make a difference. I appreciate I can just try, but wasn't sure if modem manufacturers already have thought of this and build in two perpendicular aerials to in effect create a sphere of wifi rather than a two dimensional disk (LP in your explanation)? Thanks again for the time you've spent on this. I continue to learn and I have no plans on giving up on this until I get a stable system.
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#44
...what standard wiring should I specify in order the wiring is reasonably future proof ...CAT 7?

> I would recommend CAT 6A at a minimum or 7 if you are OK with the outlay and it will fit in the ducts (which depends how many connections you will need).  There are three main aspects here: 1. cost, 2. thickness and 3. how far into the future you want to try to future-proof yourself.  Analysing all the sensitivities would take quite a while so to keep it simple I will just say my recommendation anno 2020 would be "minimum CAT 6A".

...given the comments about router antenna, and the fact that my router is on the first floor (but immediately above my Devialet Phantoms on the ground floor), would simply changing the orientation of the modem/router (ie lying it flat rather than upright)  make a difference.

> I take it from this that your modem has internal antennae and you can't actually see them, in which case I am just guessing.  I suspect however that the designers have prioritised horizontal dispersion, in which case a likely scenario is three antennae with one pointing straight up, one up at 45° and one up at 45° but perpendicular to the other - something like this \|/.  If that is the case then you will be getting minimum propagation directly above and below the router when oriented as intended (i.e. "feet down").  A simple test would be to try rotating it through 90° and seeing if the number of arcs on the wifi signal strength indicator on your phone increases when you stand exactly underneath it.  You could conduct a more accurate test with your iMac using a Wifi sniffer app that would show you signal strength in dB (yes, you would have to lug the iMac downstairs) if you were really curious.
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#45
(12-Jan-2020, 23:00)struts Wrote: ...what standard wiring should I specify in order the wiring is reasonably future proof ...CAT 7?

> I would recommend CAT 6A at a minimum or 7 if you are OK with the outlay and it will fit in the ducts (which depends how many connections you will need).  There are three main aspects here: 1. cost, 2. thickness and 3. how far into the future you want to try to future-proof yourself.  Analysing all the sensitivities would take quite a while so to keep it simple I will just say my recommendation anno 2020 would be "minimum CAT 6A".

...given the comments about router antenna, and the fact that my router is on the first floor (but immediately above my Devialet Phantoms on the ground floor), would simply changing the orientation of the modem/router (ie lying it flat rather than upright)  make a difference.

> I take it from this that your modem has internal antennae and you can't actually see them, in which case I am just guessing.  I suspect however that the designers have prioritised horizontal dispersion, in which case a likely scenario is three antennae with one pointing straight up, one up at 45° and one up at 45° but perpendicular to the other - something like this \|/.  If that is the case then you will be getting minimum propagation directly above and below the router when oriented as intended (i.e. "feet down").  A simple test would be to try rotating it through 90° and seeing if the number of arcs on the wifi signal strength indicator on your phone increases when you stand exactly underneath it.  You could conduct a more accurate test with your iMac using a Wifi sniffer app that would show you signal strength in dB (yes, you would have to lug the iMac downstairs) if you were really curious.
THANK YOU.
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#46
(13-Jan-2020, 06:46)Pwalder Wrote: THANK YOU.

@Pwalder My pleasure.  Btw, this wouldn't happen to be the router that you are using?  According to this review at least it offers pretty poor wireless performance.  

Also, I found this on the Virgin website:

Where is the best place to put my virgin superhub?

Plus, keep your Hub upright, with its lights facing into the room. So your Hub's strongest WiFi signal goes outwards – not into the floor. Finding a happy home for your Hub is really important so that you get the best WiFi signal range and performance, and our fastest ever WiFi broadband.

Which seems to confirm my suspicion about the orientation of the antennae.
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#47
That’s really interesting. I did try just rotating the router by 90 degrees about its vertical axis but there was no difference in the signal strength as recorded by the WiFi bars on my iPad but I’ll also try lying the modem on its side given the info you have found so the signal is directed down (using your LP analogy). Thanks
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#48
(13-Jan-2020, 13:24)Pwalder Wrote: That’s really interesting. I did try just rotating the router by 90 degrees about its vertical axis but there was no difference in the signal strength as recorded by the WiFi bars on my iPad but I’ll also try lying the modem on its side given the info you have found so the signal is directed down (using your LP analogy). Thanks

According to the instructions I linked above, front- (i.e. blinky lights) down is the one to try.
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#49
(14-Jan-2020, 12:11)struts Wrote:
(13-Jan-2020, 13:24)Pwalder Wrote: That’s really interesting. I did try just rotating the router by 90 degrees about its vertical axis but there was no difference in the signal strength as recorded by the WiFi bars on my iPad but I’ll also try lying the modem on its side given the info you have found so the signal is directed down (using your LP analogy). Thanks

According to the instructions I linked above, front- (i.e. blinky lights) down is the one to try.
Ah!.....ok. In the last 24 hours I haven’t had any skipping so that’s been great but I haven’t taken the restricted cap of 24/96 off yet. Maybe will try if everything is stable today. 
slightly off topic in an email conversation with Qobuz they told me their current offer to US customers of 14.99 dollars per month for a Studio subscriptions (24/192) will be coming to European customers soon. As a UK based user it’s currently £24.99 so if they go for dollar/Pound equivalence that would be a large saving. Apologies if this is old news.
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#50
(14-Jan-2020, 12:30)Pwalder Wrote:
(14-Jan-2020, 12:11)struts Wrote:
(13-Jan-2020, 13:24)Pwalder Wrote: That’s really interesting. I did try just rotating the router by 90 degrees about its vertical axis but there was no difference in the signal strength as recorded by the WiFi bars on my iPad but I’ll also try lying the modem on its side given the info you have found so the signal is directed down (using your LP analogy). Thanks

According to the instructions I linked above, front- (i.e. blinky lights) down is the one to try.
Ah!.....ok. In the last 24 hours I haven’t had any skipping so that’s been great but I haven’t taken the restricted cap of 24/96 off yet. Maybe will try if everything is stable today. 
slightly off topic in an email conversation with Qobuz they told me their current offer to US customers of 14.99 dollars per month for a Studio subscriptions (24/192) will be coming to European customers soon. As a UK based user it’s currently £24.99 so if they go for dollar/Pound equivalence that would be a large saving. Apologies if this is old news.

@Pwalder, That's great news!  My subscription is anchored in the UK as Qobuz isn't offering service here yet.
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