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upgrade is back
(09-Aug-2018, 08:28)audio_engr Wrote: I purchased my D400 (200-Master & 200-Companion) in March 2016. I bought them from a dealer in Frankfurt & imported them to Sierra Leone (West Africa) where I was working & living. Unfortunately in West Africa, UPS or FedEx do not function hence I couldn't take the advantage of Devialet's upgrade programs. Since early 2018, I have moved to the US and the upgrade program has once opened up. For my D400 to become 440-PRO, it would cost me $ 7,995. 

My long-term plans regarding source playback would be to have a Roon Nucleus Server, feeding a dCS Network Bridge endpoint via Ethernet with a Mutec REF-10 clock. The dCS Network Bridge would feed the Devialet via AES/EBU digital. 

Question - 1 
Spending $ 8,000 for my D400 to get to 440-PRO and then, spend [Roon Nucleus + dCS network bridge + Mutec REF-10 + cables], in your humble opinion ... is it worth it ?  OR simply get the [Roon Nucleus + dCS Network Bridge + Mutec REF-10 + cables] and forget about the Devialet upgrade ?

Question - 2
To what extent is the D400 to 440-PRO upgrade justifiable and how much of a sonic difference is there ?  I mean does it justify spending $ 8,000 ?

Folks, I am seeking some serious & sincere help as Devialet's $ 8,000 is just driving me nuts. 

Looking fwd to some recommendations ... Thank You !
I too am concerned about the upgrade cost - and I have an 800 - so it’s £6900 (was £4900 in earlier upgrade programme), so don’t think I’ll be going there.  However I added a dCS Network Bridge a little while ago and the difference it makes to sound quality and sound staging is amazing.  Highly recommended.
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I have also struggled with the decision of what to do. Here is my (current) take on the upgrade program:

1. It’s expensive and the difference in sound quality or overall performance is not exactly big. I sometimes regard it as a way for Devialet to sell you the same amplifier twice. Yes, that’s me being a cynic. Sorry...

2. Devialet will probably launch a new Expert line in a few years time. They have done it before and it’s in their nature. The chassi design is so central to the brand so they will probably not change it. If they do and an upgrade is no longer possible for that reason, it’s still possible to sell or trade in your old Devialet to purchase the latest. If they stick to the chassi design an upgrade will likely be available again and the changes in sound will likely be greater. 

3. Devialet have always struggled to maintain both the stability of software upgrades (AIR) and customer services and this will likely continue for some time. That combination will likely prove extremely frustrating for a lot of people when experiencing problems with the Core Infinity Board, ROON compatibility, etc. 

4. The big thing with Devialet is the ADH technology with incredibly low distortion in a small chassi (this goes for both Expert and Phantom). Period. They will probably never be as successful in any other way with any other hardware or software. Don’t upgrade because you feel a need to have streaming capabilities, but because you experience a big change in sound quality. If it’s not here, then don’t upgrade!

Instead, make sure your living/music room is as suitable as possible for audio and your setup placed correctly. This is often the cheapest way of improving the quality of sound. Too many tend to forget this and instead fuss around with expensive cables and tweaks.

Then give your Devialet optimum electrical/digital conditions to perform and you will be surprised what the amp is capable of! Start with a) improving the quality of the electricity using a really good power conditioner (I use the RM15 from Torus and it makes a huge difference in sound), b) a really good digital source (I use the dCS Network Bridge and it’s simply amazing). 

Yes, a good conditioner and a good source costs all lot of money BUT you can use the units for many years to come in a setup with or without Devialet.
Devialet Expert 1000 Pro CI / Magico A1 / ROON Nucleus w Farad Super 3 / Innuos Phoenix NET / Torus RM 16 / Acrolink Mexcel 7N-S 9000
Wireworld digital and power cables / Harmonix tuning feet / SMT acoustic 
treatment
- SWEDEN -
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(13-Aug-2018, 10:27)MightyMart Wrote: I have also struggled with the decision of what to do. Here is my (current) take on the upgrade program:

1. It’s expensive and the difference in sound quality or overall performance is not exactly big. I sometimes regard it as a way for Devialet to sell you the same amplifier twice. Yes, that’s me being a cynic. Sorry...

2. Devialet will probably launch a new Expert line in a few years time. They have done it before and it’s in their nature. The chassi design is so central to the brand so they will probably not change it. If they do and an upgrade is no longer possible for that reason, it’s still possible to sell or trade in your old Devialet to purchase the latest. If they stick to the chassi design an upgrade will likely be available again and the changes in sound will likely be greater. 

3. Devialet have always struggled to maintain both the stability of software upgrades (AIR) and customer services and this will likely continue for some time. That combination will likely prove extremely frustrating for a lot of people when experiencing problems with the Core Infinity Board, ROON compatibility, etc. 

4. The big thing with Devialet is the ADH technology with incredibly low distortion in a small chassi (this goes for both Expert and Phantom). Period. They will probably never be as successful in any other way with any other hardware or software. Don’t upgrade because you feel a need to have streaming capabilities, but because you experience a big change in sound quality. If it’s not here, then don’t upgrade!

Instead, make sure your living/music room is as suitable as possible for audio and your setup placed correctly. This is often the cheapest way of improving the quality of sound. Too many tend to forget this and instead fuss around with expensive cables and tweaks.

Then give your Devialet optimum electrical/digital conditions to perform and you will be surprised what the amp is capable of! Start with a) improving the quality of the electricity using a really good power conditioner (I use the RM15 from Torus and it makes a huge difference in sound), b) a really good digital source (I use the dCS Network Bridge and it’s simply amazing). 

Yes, a good conditioner and a good source costs all lot of money BUT you can use the units for many years to come in a setup with or without Devialet.

@MightyMart Good observations.  I probably will stick with my Devialet 200, most importantly because Roon's innovative integration with Devialet finally realized the promise of Devialet AIR.  Plus, the SQ is really good.  I really can't justify the added coin for the upgrade and believe there are other ways to optimize my set up.  Anyway, I've enjoyed the discussion and will continue to read comments on Devialet Chat.
Devialet Expert 220 Pro Kinki EX-M7 power amp tethered to a fiber-fed Lumin X1 streamer via Grimm XLRs, Vivid B1 Decade speakers in Rosso Barchetta red (only 200 produced in a limited edition), Roon Nucleus with a Samsung 860 EVO 2TB SSD, etherREGEN switch fed by a Sonore opticalModule (and Sonore-supplied transceivers and 1M optical cable) with a SOtM dCBL-Cat7 cable to my Nucleus and a DH Labs Reunion Cat8 to my Lumin T2 streamer, Keces P8 linear power supply feeding a (to come) NUC and EtherREGEN switch with an external AfterDark OCXO clock., and opticalModule (5V/1A), AudioQuest Niagara 1000 power conditioner, ASI LiveLine loom (purchased directly from Franck Tchang when I lived in France), Less Loss Firewall for Speakers and Roon lifetime license with Tidal streaming.
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One of my original reasons for upgrading, aside from not being left with an unsupported platform, was the so called "Core infinity" or "Devialet OS".  Which is supposed to be a much more powerful platform to support more new features to come.

The old Devialet Air was highly unreliable with scratchy Roon support, but near the end of the old platform lifecycle they seemed to have improved the Roon support.

But since the new upgrade, I have yet to see them delivering on any "new features" of any significance. In fact, after the new upgrade they seem to have largely forgotten about the expert platform after what would have been a sizable second helping of revenue from their loyal customers.  

I fact, it took them months just to fix the various bugs that made the upgraded machines barely usable.  Frankly it is quite disappointing.

Like some others I have also bought a dCS Network Bridge and was astounded the sound improvement compared to Devialet Air.  I am now even less reliant on the build in upgrades.  Frankly I hae yet to see what the expensive upgrade brought to the table.  At least not yet.
Kondo Overture PM-2i, Weiss DAC502, LP12 Haben, Aro, Keel, Radikal, Urika, EMT JSD6, Phasemation PP-300/T-300, Linn Krystal, Penaudio Serenade Signature

Kondo Operia SPs 2.7, KSL-VzII, Acz-Avocado, etc.


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Anyone going from a normal Expert to the ProCI should hopefully restart their 5 year warranty again (that's what happened with the Pro upgrades previously).

Only a small bonus, but nothing to be sniffed at if Devialet are still renewing the 5 year warranty
1000Pro (Matte Black), Lenehan Audio ML5 Reference's, FoilTek Speaker Cable's, Paradigm Sub1, Entreq Poseidon, Antipodes CX, Roon (Lifetime), Curious Cable USB, Aqvox Switch, Gigawatt PC-3 Evo Se, Mad Scientist Link Cable (RCA/AES), PSC Power Cords

Australia (Perth)
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Rare are the situations where we have an end-user, a retailer, and a manufacturer, of this scale, providing the possibility to extend the life of their products. As the length of this thread shows, this is a rather delicate act, as it can easily frustrate the retailer and/or the end-user.

I do not own a Devialet, but I am considering the purchase, and I have been looking into the second hand market. I also did spent some time talking with my local retailer in April 2018, who expressed complains about the competition of the second-hand market/upgrades - see below.

Over the summer we have observed 2 facts: the entry model expert pro has seen a drop in price of 15% (in my local market), and the upgrades have re-opened at a price higher than in the past. I asked myself, what's the point of this move from Devialet perspective? I suspect the move will mostly support their own business and their retailers, while giving a "nice-to-have" possibility to their end-user. Let me explain.
  • Entry level: I guess the new lower the entry price will open new business opportunity without compromising Devialet's super high-end image. That's a win-win for Devialet and their retailers.
  • Upgrade price: Right now the upgrade of a 110/120 to a 140 pro is about 60% of the price of a new pro. Other upgrades from a non-pro to pro CI are also about 40 to 60% of the retail price of the corresponding pro CI. That's a lot. If the upgrade were, say 25%. Then a first-time buyer, like me, would buy an non-pro CI on the second hand market, get the upgrade and end-up with a final price and full warranty as good as new or better. Good for me, good revenue for Devialet, but not good at all for the local retailers, because the second-hand market and Devialet (via the upgrade program) enter in direct competition with their retailers. In essence that is what my local retailer expressed a few months back. And I do understand his position.
    By maintaining the price of the upgrade high, and I do find them very hard to argue, Devialet avoid this "internal" competition, while offering the possibility to the end-user to maintain their system up to date, which creates revenue for Devialet without arm for their retailers. The difficulty for Devialet, as we can read in this thread, is to maintain the offer of the upgrade at a high value for the end-user, versus the price of the upgrade. They put more pressure of themselves by doing so i think, hence maybe the communication even in July.
So where does this leave me? I am a first time buyer, and I am attracted by the devialet offer because it is a) an amplifier that works on different principles than the traditional A/B class amp and that sound really nice and b) because it is an integrated amp/DAC/streamer which allows me to have only one box. So I want to enter the Devialet family with a pro model. So either I find a very cheap non Pro and upgrade it (won't happen, too expensive compared to new), or I find a pro CI second hand (rare), or a I buy a new one. There you go, well done Devialet.
DIY Leach amp (running for 20 years), JBL 4412A
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Hello here the expiration of my purchase.
11/2016 / Buy Le120 - 4990€ less 15% action by Devialet - 4240€
12/2016 / From the Pro Upgrade back - 3500€
01/2018 / Upgrade CI - 0 €
Overall, cost me now the 220Pro CI 7740€, today the Pro 220 costs 7990€ (saving: 250€).
I can not complain at all (my last McIntosh cost a lot more), but I am very satisfied with the 220 Pro. Rolleyes
Aavik U-280 / Audio Physic Cardeas / Melco N1ZS + D100 / Melco Switch S100 / KECES P8 Dual / Transparent Audio PowerWave X / Cable: Audioquest, Shunyata, Transparent, Ansuz Digitalz A2 Ethernet, USB
Remote: iPad-Pro
Roon Nucleus+(B), Lifetime / Qobuz Studio Sublime                                                                                                          
Germany / Bavaria
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Damn this is tough. I got my d200 at a good discount from a dealer who was dropping Devialet. I won’t say how much I paid for it but if i pay the upgrade cost i still come out just under the price of a new 220. So in that sense the price is fair.

On the other hand have Roon now and everything just works perfectly and honestly I can’t even imagine things sounding much better. Everything just well from ergonomics standpoint as well. I just don’t see what I will gain for 3500 euro. I won’t sell mine so 2nd hand value don’t mean much and infact I may lose out if I upgrade as the upgrade will not 3500 to the 2nd hand price no matter what anyone says. 

I bet 500 in room treatments will go a lot further than 20 Watts or core infinity.

Anyone know how long the upgrade will be around. I guess it doesn’t matter cos every devialet ever sold has an upgrade path so if this runs out some new one will come out eventually. May I should wait 2 years for the warranty to run out or close to it and then get whatever upgrade comes along...
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(23-Aug-2018, 14:42)rumnyc Wrote:
On the other hand have Roon now and everything just works perfectly and honestly I can’t even imagine things sounding much better. Everything just well from ergonomics standpoint as well. I just don’t see what I will gain for 3500 euro. I won’t sell mine so 2nd hand value don’t mean much and infact I may lose out if I upgrade as the upgrade will not 3500 to the 2nd hand price no matter what anyone says. 

I bet 500 in room treatments will go a lot further than 20 Watts or core infinity.

I bought an Expert 130 Pro last year before the introduction of the CI board and it received the CI upgrade (free to Expert Pro owners) earlier this year. Like you I use Roon and Roon worked perfectly for me before the upgrade and just as perfectly after the upgrade but I did get an improvement in sound quality with the upgrade which doesn't involve just the CI board but also a new operating system and firmware. I believe the improvements I got are partly hardware related and partly software related. I'm impressed by that improvement and since it was free it was definitely value for money. Whether you think the improvement you will get by going from a 200 to a 220 which involves a bit more than was involved in my upgrade is going to be worth the cost of that upgrade is another thing and cost benefit assessments are personal, no one can make that assessment for you. I would recommend taking the opportunity to listen to a 250 with the CI upgrade before making your choice.

My system is in a room with acoustic treatments (see my signature). Acoustic room treatments can make a big difference but there are a lot of different treatments out there and not all of them deliver on their claims nor do all offer the same value for money. I don't know where you are or whether your "500" referred to US dollars, UK pounds, or Euros but I'm in Australia and $500 US is currently around $700 Australian, 500 US pounds is closer to $900-1000 Australian, and 500 Euros is around $750 Australian. Here in Australia we don't have the range of treatments available overseas and our prices are dearer than the overseas prices based on a straight currency rate conversion. I can tell you that the Australian equivalent of whatever your "500" is would definitely not buy me anything in room treatment which would go close to what the treatments I have are delivering. It would not even buy me one of the 4 bass traps I have in my room (1 in each corner) and bass traps are probably the most important part of room treatment for most rooms. Without knowing anything about your room I can't say how much treatment you would require to deliver an improvement you would consider reasonable but I can tell you that the cost of the room treatment in my room was more than the cost of upgrading your 200 to a 220. I can also say that treating my room delivered a bigger improvement than the CI upgrade for my 130 did BUT it took a lot of experimentation and time to find the best arrangement for that treatment in my room. Room treatment is likely to be a lot more expensive than you think if you want a really good improvement and getting that improvement may be a little more difficult than you think. If you want to add room treatment there is one piece of advice I will give you. If you are going to treat first reflection points then I would recommend getting treatments which are moveable because if you change the speaker locations or the listening position at any time, the location of the reflection points is going to change and that creates problems if you have used treatments which are glued or otherwise physically attached to the walls as many of the available treatment products must be. The ideal placement for bass traps is in the corners and corners don't move but the location of first reflection points depends on the location of the speakers and listening position and they will move if you change the location of the speakers or listening position. If you can't move the treatments to the new reflection point locations then not only will those treatments become less effective but the sound you get may become worse.

I won't dispute your assessment that the amp upgrade may not be value for money to you but I will say that I think you won't get what you think you can get for 500 spent on room treatments, whatever your currency is.
Roon Nucleus+, Devilalet Expert 140 Pro CI, Focal Sopra 2, PS Audio P12, Keces P8 LPS, Uptone Audio EtherREGEN with optical fibre link to my router, Shunyata Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cables, Shunyata Sigma ethernet cables, Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables, Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack, RealTRAPS acoustic treatment.

Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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My 2p worth - D1000 Pro. Upgraded to CI. No noticeable difference whatsoever in sound quality, still only use Roon and vinyl. CI has not really bought anything new to the party for me (other than a more saleable amp...)
440 Pro CI, Roon ROCK, Technics 1200G, Celestion Ditton 66
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