(27-May-2016, 00:57)hk6230 Wrote: [ -> ]How do you define 'good with classical music'?
P.S. I'm still a newbie and learning.
I think f1eng is referring to the allocation of automatic metadata and similar, which on most music player software is ok for the general 'rock & pop' type music, but shockingly bad for classical. He has often posted on this subject in the past.
(27-May-2016, 08:44)Confused Wrote: [ -> ] (27-May-2016, 00:57)hk6230 Wrote: [ -> ]How do you define 'good with classical music'?
P.S. I'm still a newbie and learning.
I think f1eng is referring to the allocation of automatic metadata and similar, which on most music player software is ok for the general 'rock & pop' type music, but shockingly bad for classical. He has often posted on this subject in the past.
Yes, I heard a lot about this on metadata not properly done for classical music. I would like to learn on what's consider good for classical music.
(27-May-2016, 08:53)hk6230 Wrote: [ -> ][Yes, I heard a lot about this on metadata not properly done for classical music. I would like to learn on what's consider good for classical music.
I think the problem is that anyone who's interested in the answer to that question has a different idea about what constitutes "good".
This is because there can be much more metadata associated with classical music than the standard tags were designed to easily support. Different listeners place different priority on different aspects of the metadata, both to sort and find music to play, and to view while it's playing. It may also depend on (and/or be limited by) the devices you're using to play it.
For example, most collectors of classical music are likely to have multiple performances of the same "work" (e.g. Mahler's 2nd Symphony) by different orchestras, and possibly even multiple recordings by the same orchestra but with different conductors and/or soloists. If one wants to make it easy to find a given "performance" one has to be very careful about how the metadata is stored and presented. What works for orchestral performances may not be very useful for opera, and so on -- it's all a bit of a compromise.
So opinions about how to do this "right" vary widely, which means that in general if you pick up metadata from the usual "automatic" sources, it's almost guaranteed not to suit one's own personal preferred notion of goodness. That means re-tagging it by hand, which is quite time-consuming (for example it often takes me around half an hour to properly tag a typical classical CD).
(27-May-2016, 14:01)thumb5 Wrote: [ -> ]...for example it often takes me around half an hour to properly tag a typical classical CD...
Wow, that's a lot of work....
How do classical listeners manage all this information for their physical CD collection out of interest?
Copying your example, if you had say 10 CDs containing multiple performances of the same "work" by different orchestras, and by the same orchestra but with different conductors and/or soloists, how would you find them? And how would you find all of Mahler's work, or all the CDs featuring a certain soloist? I can only assume its a combination of being in the owners head, and scouring the shelves to find all the discs....
If that's the case, I would much rather have a computer playback solution - even with half-baked metadata - than nothing.
When I was CD based (all those 12 months ago) I found it hard enough just find the albums I wanted to listen to in my small collection (and then finding they weren't actually in their case). For me the access to searches, playlists, favourites, playback history, combined with external streaming services etc, all from the convenience of an iPad, far outweigh any negatives associated with 'puter playback. And in classical, surely you can at least fall back to the album title/artwork as a last resort - it will probably get you most of the way there, at least compared to searching the CD racks?
(27-May-2016, 14:14)Hifi_swlon Wrote: [ -> ]Copying your example, if you had say 10 CDs containing multiple performances of the same "work" by different orchestras, and by the same orchestra but with different conductors and/or soloists, how would you find them? And how would you find all of Mahler's work, or all the CDs featuring a certain soloist? I can only assume its a combination of being in the owners head, and scouring the shelves to find all the discs....
Yes, that's about right. At least, that's how I used to do it
It helps if you're a bit fussy about keeping them in some kind of order; once in the general area I tended to find the right CD partly by knowing "it's an EMI recording with a red spine on the CD case" and that kind of thing.
The problem I find with computer-based searches is that they tend to let you find things by (e.g) Composer (Mahler) or artist (City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra (or it it CBSO?)) but not usually a combination of both. One way to handle this is to make the album title something like "Mahler: Symphony No. 2 [CBSO]" which then generally allows you to search based on album title, but doesn't work very well if you have limited space for displaying titles (e.g. on an iPhone/iPod, should you be interested in listening to classical music on one).
(27-May-2016, 14:01)thumb5 Wrote: [ -> ] (27-May-2016, 08:53)hk6230 Wrote: [ -> ][Yes, I heard a lot about this on metadata not properly done for classical music. I would like to learn on what's consider good for classical music.
I think the problem is that anyone who's interested in the answer to that question has a different idea about what constitutes "good".
This is because there can be much more metadata associated with classical music than the standard tags were designed to easily support. Different listeners place different priority on different aspects of the metadata, both to sort and find music to play, and to view while it's playing. It may also depend on (and/or be limited by) the devices you're using to play it.
For example, most collectors of classical music are likely to have multiple performances of the same "work" (e.g. Mahler's 2nd Symphony) by different orchestras, and possibly even multiple recordings by the same orchestra but with different conductors and/or soloists. If one wants to make it easy to find a given "performance" one has to be very careful about how the metadata is stored and presented. What works for orchestral performances may not be very useful for opera, and so on -- it's all a bit of a compromise.
So opinions about how to do this "right" vary widely, which means that in general if you pick up metadata from the usual "automatic" sources, it's almost guaranteed not to suit one's own personal preferred notion of goodness. That means re-tagging it by hand, which is quite time-consuming (for example it often takes me around half an hour to properly tag a typical classical CD).
@
thumb5, thanks for your reply. I learnt a little bit now.
(27-May-2016, 04:39)pdg540 Wrote: [ -> ]Sounds very much like the Logitech Media Server system then. I know almost nothing of mac and ipad as I've always used Windows and android. Things will probably fall in place once all the hardware and software is in front of me.
I was a long-time Squeezebox user, LMS on Windows, and only recently switched over to Roon - when they implemented the ability to play to squeezebox devices as end-points.
Most everything I loved about LMS is substantially better with Roon. I control it with an iPad or my Win laptop and the UI is just awesome. For me, Roon changes how you select and listen to music. That's not to poo-poo LMS and the squeezebox environment - SlimDevices were truly ground-breaking and way ahead of the curve. Logitech was just way short-sighted when they bailed on it a few years back. Amazingly, there is still a huge LMS userbase.
I'm currently running Roon on a Win 10 desktop computer with an SSD to boot from and 4TB drive for the music. I've got multiple Squeezebox endpoints (SB Radio, SB Touch in kitchen, Duet in dining room) as well as my Devialet 200. Until recently, I had a SB Touch connected to the SPDIF inputs of the Devialet as well. I did spend a good bit of time trying to get AIR to work and you can find a ton of posts here that describe the frustration of doing so for many. Some have been able to get it to work fairly well, but the occasional stuttering, white noise of BSODs on the Windows server that I experienced just pushed me over the edge. And that was via ethernet, not wifi - problems I did NOT experience via LMS or Roon to the SB Touch to the Devialet.
I've since acquired a Sonore uRendu as an endpoint to the Devialet USB input to replace the SB Touch. (Ethernet > uRendu > USB > Devialet). It just works - functionally as well as the SB Touch but sound quality is far better.
Perhaps Devialet's AIR 3 will prove to be just as good as the uRendu, but it's unclear when that will be made available and if it work 100% of the time.
Mike
Hi Mike, I believe most people are aware of the potential or existing issues with AIR. Frankly, it is an option most people will prefer if it works flawlessly, unfortunately, it isn't. For me AIR2.1.3 works almost perfect but the newly public-beta AIR3.0 doesn't work too well in my environment.
I'm sure uRendu works well as it's a "wired" connection to Devialet. This can be achieved simply with an USB cable connection to Devialet, too. SQ-wise, though, is all very subjective. But, this will means more boxes for uRendu and placement of server inflexibility for direct USB connection. AIR offers us the freedom to place music server, audio renderer, and Devialet anyway in the same network, and no other boxes and/or interconnects added.
Each option has its pros and cons.
(28-May-2016, 02:05)hk6230 Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Mike, I believe most people are aware of the potential or existing issues with AIR. Frankly, it is an option most people will prefer if it works flawlessly, unfortunately, it isn't. For me AIR2.1.3 works almost perfect but the newly public-beta AIR3.0 doesn't work too well in my environment.
I'm sure uRendu works well as it's a "wired" connection to Devialet. This can be achieved simply with an USB cable connection to Devialet, too. SQ-wise, though, is all very subjective. But, this will means more boxes for uRendu and placement of server inflexibility for direct USB connection. AIR offers us the freedom to place music server, audio renderer, and Devialet anyway in the same network, and no other boxes and/or interconnects added.
Each option has its pros and cons.
Agreed that there's plenty already said about AIR. My intent was to help new users like pdg540 avoid some of the frustration I experienced. As a newbie, I thought that my early failed attempts with AIR were problems with my network or setup. When I discovered DevialetChat and saw similar issues posted here, I actually felt a bit relieved (but yeah, a bit frustrated given the time wasted ;-)
The concept and simplicity of AIR is extremely compelling and it sounds great when it works. So yes... give AIR a try, but if it doesn't work well for you, find a solution that does. Or simply wait for the formal release of AIR 3.
(27-May-2016, 14:31)thumb5 Wrote: [ -> ] (27-May-2016, 14:14)Hifi_swlon Wrote: [ -> ]Copying your example, if you had say 10 CDs containing multiple performances of the same "work" by different orchestras, and by the same orchestra but with different conductors and/or soloists, how would you find them? And how would you find all of Mahler's work, or all the CDs featuring a certain soloist? I can only assume its a combination of being in the owners head, and scouring the shelves to find all the discs....
Yes, that's about right. At least, that's how I used to do it It helps if you're a bit fussy about keeping them in some kind of order; once in the general area I tended to find the right CD partly by knowing "it's an EMI recording with a red spine on the CD case" and that kind of thing.
The problem I find with computer-based searches is that they tend to let you find things by (e.g) Composer (Mahler) or artist (City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra (or it it CBSO?)) but not usually a combination of both. One way to handle this is to make the album title something like "Mahler: Symphony No. 2 [CBSO]" which then generally allows you to search based on album title, but doesn't work very well if you have limited space for displaying titles (e.g. on an iPhone/iPod, should you be interested in listening to classical music on one).
That is about what I do. I have always filed my CDs by band/performer for pop and composer surname for classical. That requires re-tagging for the CDs to show up in any library in an obvious findable location. Most people have tagged their classical CDs with performer name list which differ from track to track, meaning a search of a soloist won't necessarily show up the whole CD. iTunes used to be much better for this than now, where I am at a loss to understand why it is the way it is.
It used to be easy to rip a CD, name a playlist with a sensible title (Mahler 2 Rattle for example) then drag and drop the ripped tracks into it. That doesn't work any more and I find the way to do it now is obtuse and crass. I hate software where updates are downgrades.
The worst system I have used is the Sooloos, which is the father of Roon, iiuc, where starting the performance of a Mahler symphony I wanted to listen to played the first movement I had started, then the first movement of one of the other recordings and would, if I hadn't switched it off and got the CD out, have played all the recordings in some bizarre, if logical by some measure presumably, order completely useless for classical music.
I can go to a CD I want to play on my racks in 10 to 15 secs so spending 30 minutes re-tagging it so it plays properly doesn't make sense, I would have to instantly find it and play it 120 times before the tagging would cease to be a waste of time, ie never.
True not bothering to put things away properly would mean it is impossible (so is forgetting you have lent it to somebody...) but I, normally a very untidy person, learned to put LPs away carefully to avoid them being ruined and I continued with CDs.
So pop on computer, plus a tiny number of high res files, the rest stay on CD, LP apart from the classical ones I ripped years ago when travelling and easily put in playlists when I still could.
So if Roon tagged and ordered classical music in a logical and useful (to me) way I would buy it, otherwise not.