(12-Jun-2016, 12:00)Confused Wrote: [ -> ] What will UPnP offer? Better sound and flexibility than AIR?
The whole point of offering UPnP is to take the Mac and PC out of the chain and be able to stream music from your NAS or other network attached device. For many that means much less hassle - I mean just look at all the problems people have faced with AIR, supposedly caused by clocking issues deep in the Windows and OSX operating systems. That is also the attraction of streamers like the Aurenders and Melcos.
Ultimately I think Devialet should provide users with a choice - UPnP, AIR, ROON, Airplay, Bluetooth... and those that want to continue using an external renderer can do so too. At the moment many feel as though they have to invest in an external renderer, simply due to the (widely reported) reliability issues surrounding AIR, not to mention the challenges (to some) of maintaining a PC or Mac audio environment. I think the key issue here is choice...
Guillaume
#offtopic: We probably would have progressed much faster if devialet would have decided to publish the Protocoll Spec´s for the AIR protocol.
I totally agree that freedom of choice can only be a good thing, and trying force people to go with proprietary solutions is not the way to win friends and loyalty. The recent 'escape' of AIR3b has brought my system up to and beyond the level of performance and versatility that I signed up for when I first bought a D170. Anything that we get in future is indeed a bonus, and we each have a choice as to whether or not we go with further upgrades. I am looking forward to hearing what is in the pipeline, but unless it further facilitates the use of ROON with AIR and Dirac (or something similar) I can't imagine spending any money on it for a while, but for others, there may be lots of exciting new options.
I mentioned it earlier but I feel like uPnP really is like going back in time. It should have been offered five years ago. But I do see it may be/seem interesting to many because of the reasons Guillaume mentioned. AIR is much more modern and versatile. It kind of was (still is) a too ambitious project for Devialet though.
Unfortunately Devialet doesn't seem to believe in open source software (although this did change a bit with the Phantom/Dialog). And they also seem to be too proud (or whatever it is that holds them back) to license any proven 3rd party solutions. Them wanting to do it all themselves effectively makes us customers their beta testers and their company a software development company.
A great, almost unfiltered opinion on uPnP by Roon from 2015 BEFORE they released RAAT (and they've nailed it!):
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/whats-w...-upnp/2101
Quote:Our contempt for UPnP basically comes down to a few things:
1) UPnP requires codec support on the endpoint, therefore making different endpoints support a different subset of whats out there. This also puts a burden of patent licensing on the manufacturer.
2) UPnP has no good solution for streaming proprietary/unsupported/new formats
3) UPnP creates an ecosystem of lowest common denominator support
4) UPnP lacks "a brain", like the Roon or Sooloos Core, so it cant do intelligent things like Swim/Radio, normalization, crossfading intelligence, those pretty waveforms in the seek position, etc..
5) UPnP leads to a pretty foul experience. Spreadsheets and file management is not how music should be experienced. We haven't seen a good user experience with UPnP, ever. The HiFi dealers agree, and only put up with UPnP because they must. It was clear that UPnP was made by/for endpoint manufacturers, and not user experience creators. Our party line is that "UPnP leads to Twonky". You can put lipstick on that pig, but fundamentally, without a brain, you have Twonky like experience.
OpenHome has the exact same issues, and although they are fixing a lot of the low hanging fruit, we believe the architecture is fundamentally wrong.
Airplay got the above right. By streaming PCM, and with Apple certifying their implementations, Airplay devices are quite robust and always provide a great experience. It doesnt matter what new format or stream the endpoint supports, as long as the source can turn it into PCM. The experience is in the hands of the brain, not the renderer.
Songcast is similar to Airplay in this regard.
Unfortunately, both Airplay and Songcast have two fundamental problems related to sound quality. One is limited format support (no DSD) and that the clock is driven by the source, instead of the receiver (the endpoint surely will have the best crystal in the room).
We plan to solve these problems with the Roon Advanced Audio Transport (RAAT) protocol. The 20+ manufacturers we've spoken to, including Bel Canto that you mention, are loving our solution. It puts the audio in their hands, and the experience control in ours. It compromises nothing for quality, and puts very little burden on the manufacturer. It also allows for expansion, while never creating a lowest common denominator experience.
We aren't there yet, but by next year, we are confident UPnP support will start being second tier in the world of HiFi manufacturers. This is why you are having to deal with "computers" right now. We all hate computers too. If you want no-compromise high quality audio, you need top-end electrically isolated devices. General purpose computers are solving a totally different problem. Roonspeakers aims to solve that by working with every hardware manufacturer, as well as providing multiple DIY solutions ranging from turnkey Adnroid/iOS app to a bit more involved RaspberryPi builds.
If it's north of £3000 and UPNP is the new "Stable" streaming solution I'll be moving back to a 2 box solution. Ayre AX-5 Twenty and one of the plethora of DACs actually capable of doing native DSD.
(12-Jun-2016, 13:43)Dr Tone Wrote: [ -> ]If it's north of £3000 and UPNP is the new "Stable" streaming solution I'll be moving back to a 2 box solution. Ayre AX-5 Twenty and on of the plethora of DACs actually capable of doing native DSD.
I hope for that kind of money it is something really good, if I am going to upgrade my 400 and spend that amount on each of my 200 it better be good or I will look at other brands.
(12-Jun-2016, 13:43)Dr Tone Wrote: [ -> ]If it's north of £3000 and UPNP is the new "Stable" streaming solution I'll be moving back to a 2 box solution. Ayre AX-5 Twenty and on of the plethora of DACs actually capable of doing native DSD.
You don't think there might be some other improvements as well?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For me an internal streaming board seems to be the best, they can do. No more PC or Mac. No questions concerning AIR or other connections any more ;-) Of course they should implement roon to make it perfect. No more need for Aurender & Co.! Just one thing. Devialet should know how to feed his amp best with music. And as they always said: no cable is the best cable.
Hopefully they don´t stop with the development to soon and forget something. Would be disappointing to miss roon at the end.
(12-Jun-2016, 13:39)Antoine Wrote: [ -> ]I mentioned it earlier but I feel like uPnP really is like going back in time. It should have been offered five years ago. But I do see it may be/seem interesting to many because of the reasons Guillaume mentioned. AIR is much more modern and versatile. It kind of was (still is) a too ambitious project for Devialet though.
Unfortunately Devialet doesn't seem to believe in open source software (although this did change a bit with the Phantom/Dialog). And they also seem to be too proud (or whatever it is that holds them back) to license any proven 3rd party solutions. Them wanting to do it all themselves effectively makes us customers their beta testers and their company a software development company.
A great, almost unfiltered opinion on uPnP by Roon from 2015 BEFORE they released RAAT (and they've nailed it!):
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/whats-w...-upnp/2101
Quote:Our contempt for UPnP basically comes down to a few things:
1) UPnP requires codec support on the endpoint, therefore making different endpoints support a different subset of whats out there. This also puts a burden of patent licensing on the manufacturer.
2) UPnP has no good solution for streaming proprietary/unsupported/new formats
3) UPnP creates an ecosystem of lowest common denominator support
4) UPnP lacks "a brain", like the Roon or Sooloos Core, so it cant do intelligent things like Swim/Radio, normalization, crossfading intelligence, those pretty waveforms in the seek position, etc..
5) UPnP leads to a pretty foul experience. Spreadsheets and file management is not how music should be experienced. We haven't seen a good user experience with UPnP, ever. The HiFi dealers agree, and only put up with UPnP because they must. It was clear that UPnP was made by/for endpoint manufacturers, and not user experience creators. Our party line is that "UPnP leads to Twonky". You can put lipstick on that pig, but fundamentally, without a brain, you have Twonky like experience.
OpenHome has the exact same issues, and although they are fixing a lot of the low hanging fruit, we believe the architecture is fundamentally wrong.
Airplay got the above right. By streaming PCM, and with Apple certifying their implementations, Airplay devices are quite robust and always provide a great experience. It doesnt matter what new format or stream the endpoint supports, as long as the source can turn it into PCM. The experience is in the hands of the brain, not the renderer.
Songcast is similar to Airplay in this regard.
Unfortunately, both Airplay and Songcast have two fundamental problems related to sound quality. One is limited format support (no DSD) and that the clock is driven by the source, instead of the receiver (the endpoint surely will have the best crystal in the room).
We plan to solve these problems with the Roon Advanced Audio Transport (RAAT) protocol. The 20+ manufacturers we've spoken to, including Bel Canto that you mention, are loving our solution. It puts the audio in their hands, and the experience control in ours. It compromises nothing for quality, and puts very little burden on the manufacturer. It also allows for expansion, while never creating a lowest common denominator experience.
We aren't there yet, but by next year, we are confident UPnP support will start being second tier in the world of HiFi manufacturers. This is why you are having to deal with "computers" right now. We all hate computers too. If you want no-compromise high quality audio, you need top-end electrically isolated devices. General purpose computers are solving a totally different problem. Roonspeakers aims to solve that by working with every hardware manufacturer, as well as providing multiple DIY solutions ranging from turnkey Adnroid/iOS app to a bit more involved RaspberryPi builds.
That is a very persuasive list of arguments against UPNP. Perhaps a more ideal solution would be support for multiple transport protocols (in addition to AIR)?
[edit] or just open source AIR and make it available to everyone. Perhaps someone else could fix it then!
2 years ago, UPNP would have made sense. Now there is ROON, it really does feel like the Stone Age.
It's not even like UPNP is 100% reliable or straightforward, they would definitely be better to just fix AIR in my opinion. I assume there must be some other upgrade, I can't see anyone paying £1000 to get UPNP, never mind £3000!