(16-Jun-2016, 22:59)Seb310 Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, could someone explain me why Air should sound better than USB? Cause with (asynchronous) USB, the DEV get the data, and manage with it's DAC, and that's all? Finally, doesn't matter how the data get into the devialet ?
Ps : hope it's not a kind of Godwin's law...
By using AIR the data from the network is buffered inside the Devialet and then processed by the internal DAC. No jitter can occur, since this process is completely independent of any external clocking. As long as the buffer does not run empty you can be sure that the data is processed bit-perfect. If the buffer underruns you hear dropouts.
With other digital sources like USB, AES/EBU, BNC the sender delivers the data with its own clock. Even small inaccuracies between the clock of the sender and the internal clock of the Devialet can induce, that the Devialet can not process all bits sent by the source. This is no longer bit-perfect (jitter) and the reason, why in professional studio equipment master clocks are used, which synchronize all devices in the digital chain. Unfortunately, the Devialet does not have an input for an external clock.
USB signals from a computer tend to have a bad clock precision. Precision can be improved e.g. by reclockers like the Mutec MC-3+.
Or you can use high quality streamers like the ones from Aurender, which already have a very precise output. But even if you have a source with a very precise clock, still the clock accuracy of the Devialet matters (unless you synchronize Devialet and sources with a master clock, which is not possible).
Since AIR bypasses these problems, it delivers the best sound quality you can achieve.
(17-Jun-2016, 06:35)mobaer Wrote: [ -> ] (16-Jun-2016, 22:59)Seb310 Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, could someone explain me why Air should sound better than USB? Cause with (asynchronous) USB, the DEV get the data, and manage with it's DAC, and that's all? Finally, doesn't matter how the data get into the devialet ?
Ps : hope it's not a kind of Godwin's law...
By using AIR the data from the network is buffered inside the Devialet and then processed by the internal DAC. No jitter can occur, since this process is completely independent of any external clocking. As long as the buffer does not run empty you can be sure that the data is processed bit-perfect. If the buffer underruns you hear dropouts.
With other digital sources like USB, AES/EBU, BNC the sender delivers the data with its own clock. Even small inaccuracies between the clock of the sender and the internal clock of the Devialet can induce, that the Devialet can not process all bits sent by the source. This is no longer bit-perfect (jitter) and the reason, why in professional studio equipment master clocks are used, which synchronize all devices in the digital chain. Unfortunately, the Devialet does not have an input for an external clock.
USB signals from a computer tend to have a bad clock precision. Precision can be improved e.g. by reclockers like the Mutec MC-3+.
Or you can use high quality streamers like the ones from Aurender, which already have a very precise output. But even if you have a source with a very precise clock, still the clock accuracy of the Devialet matters (unless you synchronize Devialet and sources with a master clock, which is not possible).
Since AIR bypasses these problems, it delivers the best sound quality you can achieve.
Thanks for your clear answer.
It appears I was wrong because I thought that asynchronous USB was developed in order to avoid the use of computer clock, and let the DAC manage the timing.
(17-Jun-2016, 06:35)mobaer Wrote: [ -> ]By using AIR the data from the network is buffered inside the Devialet and then processed by the internal DAC. No jitter can occur, since this process is completely independent of any external clocking. As long as the buffer does not run empty you can be sure that the data is processed bit-perfect. If the buffer underruns you hear dropouts.
With other digital sources like USB, AES/EBU, BNC the sender delivers the data with its own clock. Even small inaccuracies between the clock of the sender and the internal clock of the Devialet can induce, that the Devialet can not process all bits sent by the source. This is no longer bit-perfect (jitter) and the reason, why in professional studio equipment master clocks are used, which synchronize all devices in the digital chain. Unfortunately, the Devialet does not have an input for an external clock.
USB signals from a computer tend to have a bad clock precision. Precision can be improved e.g. by reclockers like the Mutec MC-3+.
Or you can use high quality streamers like the ones from Aurender, which already have a very precise output. But even if you have a source with a very precise clock, still the clock accuracy of the Devialet matters (unless you synchronize Devialet and sources with a master clock, which is not possible).
Since AIR bypasses these problems, it delivers the best sound quality you can achieve.
You've just explained again why I want AIR to work! And don't need to invest in all these other (overpriced) boxes and cables.
Very clear. Thanks.
(17-Jun-2016, 06:35)mobaer Wrote: [ -> ] (16-Jun-2016, 22:59)Seb310 Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, could someone explain me why Air should sound better than USB? Cause with (asynchronous) USB, the DEV get the data, and manage with it's DAC, and that's all? Finally, doesn't matter how the data get into the devialet ?
Ps : hope it's not a kind of Godwin's law...
By using AIR the data from the network is buffered inside the Devialet and then processed by the internal DAC. No jitter can occur, since this process is completely independent of any external clocking. As long as the buffer does not run empty you can be sure that the data is processed bit-perfect. If the buffer underruns you hear dropouts.
With other digital sources like USB, AES/EBU, BNC the sender delivers the data with its own clock. Even small inaccuracies between the clock of the sender and the internal clock of the Devialet can induce, that the Devialet can not process all bits sent by the source. This is no longer bit-perfect (jitter) and the reason, why in professional studio equipment master clocks are used, which synchronize all devices in the digital chain. Unfortunately, the Devialet does not have an input for an external clock.
USB signals from a computer tend to have a bad clock precision. Precision can be improved e.g. by reclockers like the Mutec MC-3+.
Or you can use high quality streamers like the ones from Aurender, which already have a very precise output. But even if you have a source with a very precise clock, still the clock accuracy of the Devialet matters (unless you synchronize Devialet and sources with a master clock, which is not possible).
Since AIR bypasses these problems, it delivers the best sound quality you can achieve.
That's correct, except for asynchronous USB where the audio samples are clocked through the DAC using its internal clock which is asynchronous to (in a different clock domain from) the clock on the USB host. There are other mechanisms to ensure that this does not cause long-term drift and loss of samples but these do not affect the internal DAC clock - they're based on telling the source whether to send more or fewer samples. AIR has a similar kind of feedback mechanism that causes the host to keep in track with the rate at which the Devialet is consuming samples. Purely from a clocking point of view asynchronous USB should be the same as AIR, leaving aside possible effects on sound quality associated with the USB interface itself.
(17-Jun-2016, 07:01)Seb310 Wrote: [ -> ][It appears I was wrong because I thought that asynchronous USB was developed in order to avoid the use of computer clock, and let the DAC manage the timing.
You're not wrong, that is pretty much what it does. The computer does have to have a clock that's roughly at the same rate as the DAC's but the DAC is in overall control of the rate at which audio samples are consumed.
(17-Jun-2016, 06:35)mobaer Wrote: [ -> ] (16-Jun-2016, 22:59)Seb310 Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, could someone explain me why Air should sound better than USB? Cause with (asynchronous) USB, the DEV get the data, and manage with it's DAC, and that's all? Finally, doesn't matter how the data get into the devialet ?
Ps : hope it's not a kind of Godwin's law...
By using AIR the data from the network is buffered inside the Devialet and then processed by the internal DAC. No jitter can occur, since this process is completely independent of any external clocking. As long as the buffer does not run empty you can be sure that the data is processed bit-perfect. If the buffer underruns you hear dropouts.
With other digital sources like USB, AES/EBU, BNC the sender delivers the data with its own clock. Even small inaccuracies between the clock of the sender and the internal clock of the Devialet can induce, that the Devialet can not process all bits sent by the source. This is no longer bit-perfect (jitter) and the reason, why in professional studio equipment master clocks are used, which synchronize all devices in the digital chain. Unfortunately, the Devialet does not have an input for an external clock.
USB signals from a computer tend to have a bad clock precision. Precision can be improved e.g. by reclockers like the Mutec MC-3+.
Or you can use high quality streamers like the ones from Aurender, which already have a very precise output. But even if you have a source with a very precise clock, still the clock accuracy of the Devialet matters (unless you synchronize Devialet and sources with a master clock, which is not possible).
Since AIR bypasses these problems, it delivers the best sound quality you can achieve.
In the first version of AIR, where AIR was the actual player, this was correct. The playback chain was indeed controlled asynchronously by the amplifier. When Devialet introduced a virtual sound card for AIR, the clock in the amplifier could still control (I am not sure it did, however. Maybe AIR3 does this?) the "sound card" on the PC/MAC, but not the playback software (JRiver, A+, Tidal/Qobus desktop etc) so had to rely on the players ability to deliver data (which again depends on clock of the computer). I suspect that any sound quality improvements in AIR vs USB has more to do with the internal signal path where AIR is better positioned and also that the USB implementation in Expert amps may not be the best. S/PDIF is not asynchronous so the signal flow on AES/EBU, BNC (and RCA) is clocked by locking on to the embedded clock in the data stream.
(17-Jun-2016, 07:40)thumb5 Wrote: [ -> ] (17-Jun-2016, 07:01)Seb310 Wrote: [ -> ][It appears I was wrong because I thought that asynchronous USB was developed in order to avoid the use of computer clock, and let the DAC manage the timing.
You're not wrong, that is pretty much what it does. The computer does have to have a clock that's roughly at the same rate as the DAC's but the DAC is in overall control of the rate at which audio samples are consumed.
I'm glad to read this...
Envoyé de mon KIW-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk
(17-Jun-2016, 09:23)Seb310 Wrote: [ -> ] (17-Jun-2016, 07:40)thumb5 Wrote: [ -> ] (17-Jun-2016, 07:01)Seb310 Wrote: [ -> ][It appears I was wrong because I thought that asynchronous USB was developed in order to avoid the use of computer clock, and let the DAC manage the timing.
You're not wrong, that is pretty much what it does. The computer does have to have a clock that's roughly at the same rate as the DAC's but the DAC is in overall control of the rate at which audio samples are consumed.
I'm glad to read this...
Envoyé de mon KIW-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk
Great! Now can we return to the title of the thread?
Guillaume
(17-Jun-2016, 09:10)ogs Wrote: [ -> ] (17-Jun-2016, 06:35)mobaer Wrote: [ -> ] (16-Jun-2016, 22:59)Seb310 Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, could someone explain me why Air should sound better than USB? Cause with (asynchronous) USB, the DEV get the data, and manage with it's DAC, and that's all? Finally, doesn't matter how the data get into the devialet ?
Ps : hope it's not a kind of Godwin's law...
By using AIR the data from the network is buffered inside the Devialet and then processed by the internal DAC. No jitter can occur, since this process is completely independent of any external clocking. As long as the buffer does not run empty you can be sure that the data is processed bit-perfect. If the buffer underruns you hear dropouts.
With other digital sources like USB, AES/EBU, BNC the sender delivers the data with its own clock. Even small inaccuracies between the clock of the sender and the internal clock of the Devialet can induce, that the Devialet can not process all bits sent by the source. This is no longer bit-perfect (jitter) and the reason, why in professional studio equipment master clocks are used, which synchronize all devices in the digital chain. Unfortunately, the Devialet does not have an input for an external clock.
USB signals from a computer tend to have a bad clock precision. Precision can be improved e.g. by reclockers like the Mutec MC-3+.
Or you can use high quality streamers like the ones from Aurender, which already have a very precise output. But even if you have a source with a very precise clock, still the clock accuracy of the Devialet matters (unless you synchronize Devialet and sources with a master clock, which is not possible).
Since AIR bypasses these problems, it delivers the best sound quality you can achieve.
In the first version of AIR, where AIR was the actual player, this was correct. The playback chain was indeed controlled asynchronously by the amplifier. When Devialet introduced a virtual sound card for AIR, the clock in the amplifier could still control (I am not sure it did, however. Maybe AIR3 does this?) the "sound card" on the PC/MAC, but not the playback software (JRiver, A+, Tidal/Qobus desktop etc) so had to rely on the players ability to deliver data (which again depends on clock of the computer). I suspect that any sound quality improvements in AIR vs USB has more to do with the internal signal path where AIR is better positioned and also that the USB implementation in Expert amps may not be the best. S/PDIF is not asynchronous so the signal flow on AES/EBU, BNC (and RCA) is clocked by locking on to the embedded clock in the data stream.
The last thing in your replay I can vouch for, a Mutec MC3 between my microRendu and Devialet made a change to the better. A good re-clocker and the use of AES instead of USB is something that I can recomend to try if one dont want to use AIR.
I received an email today thanking me for being one of the earliest Devialet Premier purchasers, and offering "a physical upgrade ... at advantageous conditions" as one of the first 200 to upgrade. There's a list of eleven changes, which looks like a top to bottom upgrade, but no mention of Air (which I have cursed and abandoned years ago) and no mention of pricing.